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Multiple melee

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Multiple melee

Post by pw4379 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:17 pm

I'm having trouble with understanding the Multiple melee in more than one phase rule.

It says (p41 7.7.4)
"The unit that restarts the melee automatically activates friendly units belonging to the same command that are involved in the melee and that have not been activated that turn"

OK so that refers to units THAT HAVE NOT YET BEEN ACTIVATED. Understand that.

Then we have "Units from the command that were activated beforehand as well as units from other commands may fight in the melee that ensues"

So are we simply saying that all units in the melee fight; "again" if they have already been activated, for the first time if they have not.
Why the two seperate paragraphs?


Thanks
Phil Rolling Eyes

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:54 pm

One of the more important parts of Impetus is multiple melees. This is what gives Impetus the flow it has. The basic point is that units moving into melee reactivate a melee even when a melee has already occurred previously in the turn. This principle extends over the activation of commands. A main unit that has already meleed can be reactivated when a support unit from another command later in the turn moves into contact with the same enemy (and visa-versa.) Does that help at all? It gets a bit more complicated when units from two commands already start in contact with a common enemy.
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by pw4379 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:25 pm

I think I understand that bit and appreciate what it brings to the game.

I do not yet understand the implications of "Units from the command that were activated beforehand as well as units from other commands may fight in the melee that ensues"

This seems to mean excatly the same as the preceeding sentence. What would be different when a different command is involved?
If you can point me to the relevant rule section I will read it up rather than bothering the formum, but I can't see where it is covered.

Ta
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by RogerC on Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:42 pm

I'll have a go at explaining. I hope I've got this right.

Assume unit A of one army is in contact with unit X of the other army, and unit B in the same army as A contacts X and triggers a melee. There are four possibilities. In all four there is a melee involving units A, B and X; it is always right that all units involved in the melee fight.

In the first situation, units A and B are in the same command, and unit A has already been activated this turn (maybe that's why it is in contact with X). A, B and X fight; neither A nor B can be activated again this turn (although I suppose they could be reactivated if the melee involving A, B and X is a draw, and later unit C also moves into contact with X; I'll ignore that that possibility in the discussion below).

In the second situation, units A and B are in different commands, the command including A has already been activated this turn, and now we're concerned with the activation of the command including B. Again, A, B and X fight and neither A nor B can be activated again this turn.

In the third situation units A and B are in the same command, but unit A hasn't been activated when unit B is activated. A, B and X fight. A and B cannot be activated again this turn; effectively A loses its own activation because of the actions of B.

In the fourth situation, A and B are in different commands, and the command including A hasn't yet been activated this turn. A , B and X fight, and B cannot be activated again. However, when the command including A is activated, A can be activated again. It hasn't lost its own activation, because it isn't in the same command as the unit that 'restarts' the melee (B).

Phil, your rewording of rule 7.4 doesn't say whether unit A can be activated later in the third and fourth situations. Because you get a different answer depending on whether A and B are in the same command, the rule is necessarily complicated.

I'm sorry that this explanation is a bit long-winded. It seemed best to cover all the possibilities.

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:37 am

I agree Roger C on your first three examples but think that the last example may be incorrect. If all three units are already in contact at the beginning of the turn as you say and command with B is activated and a melee ensues I believe that A is now finished for the turn even though A's command hasn't yet activated. 7.7.4 emphasizes that a multiple melee starts again when a new unit contacts an engaged Unit. In this case the there is no new moving unit into the melee and thus there cannot be a reactivation of the melee even when the a new command is activated.
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by RogerC on Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:59 am

Thank you Gaius, but I want to stick with my original interpretation at the moment.

Suppose A is in contact with X at the start of the turn. The command of B is activated (B in a different command from A) and B joins the melee. We're all agreed that A, B and X fight. Suppose now that X is destroyed in that fight. There are now no units in contact with A and B. Later in the turn, the command including A is activated. It may be much later, with several other commands, including enemy commands, activated between the activation of B's command and A's command. The question is whether A can now be activated?

I say it can. For me, 7.7.4 is clear that only friendly units 'in the same Command that are involved in the melee' are activated. So A, which isn't in the same command as B, hasn't been activated when B 'restarts' the melee, and so can be activated along with other units of its command later in the turn.

There is a practical gaming point here. As I said, there could be several other commands activated before the command is activated. If A had 'lost' its activation when the melee between A, B and X was fought, I'd have to remember that for some considerable time until I came to activate A's command. The rule avoids that (as I see it).

It is slightly more difficult when, in the above situation, the melee between A, B and X is a draw. However, even then, I think that A can be activated when its command is activated. Again, by 7.7.4, it hasn't been activated yet this turn (because it is in a different command from B). So I can activate A and 'restart' the melee.

I don't need a new unit moving into the melee to restart the melee if I'm activating a unit already in the melee. Otherwise, a drawn melee could never be fought, in the absence of a new unit. Rule 7.7.4 controls which units can be activated, as in my original third and fourth situations.

Sorry, another long post. This has got surprisingly complicated. I'm supposing it doesn't come up often.

RogerC


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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:25 pm

You may be correct Roger. We did play it the way you suggest for a while but in our own reading of the rules we've come up with a different interpretation than yours. Perhaps Lorenzo could clarify this as it does happen often enough.

I would see the question of A in your analysis as similar to what happens when a unit fires through opportunity. In a later activation in the same turn that unit can move and melee but cannot fire again. In the case above unit A could move in his activation  and generate a new melee should X retreat or rout. What A can't do is reactivate another round of melee with X because he has already done so in the turn and remains in contact with X in his activation. In simple terms without any moving units there are two melees per turn in an ongoing fight between stationary units, one in my turn and one in yours. That's our thinking at least.
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by RogerC on Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:40 am

Thank you again, Gaius. I take your point about opportunity fire limiting the possibilities for a subsequent activation. Maybe you are right that 'restarting' a drawn melee which has already been fought once in the turn is similarly excluded from the actions that A can carry out in its activation. I agree that a ruling from Lorenzo would be useful.

An interesting discussion; I just hope we haven't made Phil even more confused.

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by pw4379 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:05 pm

Uhmmmm.
No not more confused. Quite a few things clarified. I understand the dilemma and for now would tend to agree with the "one melee per turn" unless new units re-start it.
I have also learnt that a unit that fires on opportunity cannot fire when it is activated in it's turn. I am supposed to have read the rules several times but hadn't picked that up!

Many thanks to you both for your replies. I find the forum is a great place to learn. I want to be competent with the rules before trying to introduce them to my local club. I am getting there slowly!

Phil

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by pacofores on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:12 pm

Sure "multiple melee" is the most difficult section of the rulebook to understand...we need a clarification with examples, please

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by pw4379 on Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:46 pm

Examples are tricky. I always find that situations arrive in a game that you would never think to put into examples. Best way to learn is to play as much as possible (with experienced players if you can find them) and post queries here on the forum.
As you have seen answers are always forthcoming and you will get the hang of it pretty quickly.
Good gaming

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