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are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

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are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by stecal on Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:13 pm

Just noticing this all over the Italian Wars lists in EI 1.

for example, Charles V Imperials, pg 30.

I can buy Harquebusiers (T) 6 4 0 B VD 2 21 pts

else where in the lists are Italian Harquebusiers (T) 6 3 0 B VD 1 19 pts.

in the notes it says you can upgrade the Italian Harq to VBU 4 & the new cost is 21 pts. No mention of VD change, so these stay at VD 1? Seems a bit inconsistent & quite a bargain at 2 pts cost.

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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by Tarty on Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:19 pm

Yes VD stays the same at 1. This reflects their 'expendability' more than anything else....lot's of examples of this throughout the lists. One that comes to mind are the Carthaginian Celts at only 1VD.....most war bands in the lists are 2VD costs are the same.
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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:52 pm

In Impetus the VDs was designed in consideration of expensability more than "valour".
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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:39 pm

I agree stecal with you basic point. There has certainly been evolution in the EI lists since EI1 was published. By EI3 most upgrades (but not all!) include an increase in VD. This is an important feature of the mature lists and I hope when the lists are reissued for Impetus 2 that more consistency will be shown around this.
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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by stecal on Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:05 pm

Gaius Cassius wrote:I agree stecal with you basic point. There has certainly been evolution in the EI lists since EI1 was published. By EI3 most upgrades (but not all!) include an increase in VD. This is an important feature of the mature lists and I hope when the lists are reissued for Impetus 2 that more consistency will be shown around this.  

Yes, this is what I noticed in the later lists. Most upgradeable troops include 2 stat lines and any upgrades in the text below are usually up to half at most can be upgraded. Some upgrades for 2-3 points are such a no-brainer I am not sure why the other stat is even offered. Makes too many armies into all super troops.

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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:59 pm

I don't think there is a consistency problem - or rather I dont think the different approaches is a problem. Some upgrades can also involve an increase in Vd - for example upgrading a unit to represent a group of more skilled and experienced troops could justify an upgrade in VD as their loss would be harder felt, but a group of mercenaries or troops who may well fight slightly better but whose worth to the general is limited would not justify a VD increase. Having the flexibility to do both is a bonus

The problem really is the all or nothing upgrades which plague some lists - I am happy that a % of my troops can be elite, but surely there has to be some who dont quite make the grade?
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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:34 pm

The later lists (EI3-5) tend to increase the VD for the better troops. I think many of the lists in EI1 and 2 would benefit from a reworking of the VD. Going from VBU 3 to 4 costs 2 points which is really nothing but the extra VD that commonly accompanies the upgrade is an important counter balance.
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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:56 pm

But VD isnt a measure of performance, it is a measure of perceived value to the army. It makes no sense having an across the board increase
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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:11 am

Performance and perceived value to the army seem interdependent to me and linking them seems to be a good starting point in determining VD. So I think one can agree with your statement that an a across the board increase makes no sense while still holding to principle that better troops tend to have higher VD. After all, the "perceived value" of a unit to the army is a highly subjective determination in the vast majority of the lists we play with.

All I'd like to see (and I think stecal is in agreement with me) is to see the lists in EI 1&2 brought up to the same standard of care as the later EIs. So for instance the Seljuk list in EI2 has two levels of CL cavalry (VBU 3 and an upgraded 4) both having VD 2. In the Mamluk list in EI3 also has two levels of CL cavalry (3 and 4) but with the first having VD1 and the second upgraded having VD2. I don't think the difference between the two lists has anything to do with perceived value of the unit to the army but rather a development in the way the lists are designed.
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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:28 am

I would totally disagree. On table performance and perceived value (and I mean that in a historical sense) are often quite different. Many battles are won by the lowliest troops, or lost by the highborn being idiots. I'm not saying there is never a link, but it is clear that there should never also be a direct correlation between an increase in VBU and VD.

I would agree we could all value a rehash of the lists to a more even quality - but I would point out some of the later EIs are far from consistent and are also IMHO rather dubious. Updating to the same standard as some lists in EI5 is a retrograde step.

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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:35 am

Yes, I guess we do disagree. Out of curiosity, what lists in EI5 cause you concern?
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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by Zippee on Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:22 pm

Yeah assigning VD currently is more art than science. It's a perceived value of worth to army, state, political position, etc - all of which are fairly nebulous and have often very little to do with the units value / performance on the field. Added to which that latter value can change tremendously in comparison to the enemy and terrain.

On the one hand I like the attempt at historical verisimilitude that means your vizier's combat inefficient flower garden guard are worth more VD than the underpaid peasant warriors that will actually have to fight.

On the other hand it sits uncomfortably against a points buy system that attempts to value units on performance and value to the army in a meta army list system. And then determines that the win/lose rests firmly on the VD so bought.

I'd probably be in favour of removing VD from having a points value at all and instead just have it as an assigned arbitrary value based on perceived historical values - which is how we determine that there was actually a vizier's flower garden guard in the first place and how many bases on table it should consist of.
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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by stecal on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:25 pm

in that case the nomadic horseman's wagon laager camp with all their wives, children and worldly possesions should have a VD value of 1000, and rest of their troops VD 0 as they are willing to die to protect it.

Point values in general are probably way off in all the lists now.  A & B class vs C is probably unbalanced due to the +1 for higher discipline in melee.  This is very noticeable when using VBU 3 or 4 B class troops who got 25% better vs barbarians

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Re: are upgrades supposed to change the VD as well?

Post by Tarty on Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:28 am

ah this old nut again ... dark and mirky waters Laughing

The VD system in Impetus is one of the things that attracted me originally. It's a move away from low historical content points driven games I think.
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