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Patrician Roman Saggitarii Cataphractarii

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Patrician Roman Saggitarii Cataphractarii

Post by agrippa on Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:40 am



Patrician Roman Saggitarii Cataphractarii . Any idea what this troop type represents? It's name suggests mounted heavily armoured horse archer but the troop class is "CL".

I am thinking of using Aventine Lightly armored Steppe Horse archers for them. They have javelin buckets which would indicate close combat is an option.

I need 6 minis.

Pat

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Re: Patrician Roman Saggitarii Cataphractarii

Post by Zippee on Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:49 pm

Roman 'regimental' names often refer to older equipment or tradition. Just aa modern fusiliers no longer actually carry fusils.

As there is no actual Patrician list I can only assume you refer to the options under the dubious beta list - I really do wish these lists were withdrawn, they are mostly rubbish.

This would just be a late version of any Late Roman Equites Sagitarrii - CL with bow and shield, appearance would no doubt depend largely on the area the unit was drawn from or stationed in.

I would doubt they would also be javelin armed if they are actually imperial rather than foederati, they probably would retain the small round shield characteristic of the type.

If 'cataphractarii' in the unit title had any relevance it might be an allusion to them being armoured (which might just mean helmet and shield).

Personally I think the name is either an error or just plain BS. Actual Sagitarrii Cataphractarii are unlikely at this time in the west and if present would no doubt look similar to what we think of as early Byzantine armoured horse archers - and would be CM not CL.



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Re: Patrician Roman Saggitarii Cataphractarii

Post by RogerC on Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:39 pm

Like Zippee, I wonder if this is just a naming mistake. The relevant option just upgrades 2 CL to 4/1 from 3/1 or 3/0 in exchange for giving up an S. However, I don't know enough about the period to say for sure. I note that the 2nd option gives what look like real cataphracts - 7/4 CP1.

Zippee, there is a Patrician Roman list in the BI2 rule book. It may have its origin in an old beta list, but is as 'official' as any other BI2 list.

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Re: Patrician Roman Saggitarii Cataphractarii

Post by Zippee on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:58 am

RogerC wrote:
Zippee, there is a Patrician Roman list in the BI2 rule book. It may have its origin in an old beta list, but is as 'official' as any other BI2 list.

RogerC

Err, no there isn't. There are two Late Imperial Roman lists - east and west covering from 285 to 378 / 410 respectively which form part of Vol VII - The Roman Empire as part of the "Imperial Age" Period, which as you say appears in BI2.

A Patrician List would cover from then through to nearly the end of the 5th century. Typically beginning with Aetius' assumption of power and ending at a point when the last vestiges of Roman military power have been absorbed into barbarian culture, which is admittedly a bit vague but somewhere between 483 and 495 would seem reasonable.

A Patrician list therefore would be in Vol VIII - The Fall of Rome which as yet is just one of the many volumes that has not seen the light of day!

Based on some limited scanning of books, the last mention of cataphractarii / clibanarii seems to be in 395 in the west. Horse archers of any ilk are going to be more common in the east than the west but I wouldn't rule out CL equites sagitarii being available to a western patrician.
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Re: Patrician Roman Saggitarii Cataphractarii

Post by RogerC on Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:18 pm

Errr, yes these is. BI2 rule book, page 29 - '8.1 Patrician Romans 410-493AD'. I think you are answering for 'full' Impetus, but I believe Agrippa was asking about Basic Impetus (BI2).

It is the Patrician Roman list in the BI2 rule book that has the 'Saggitarii Cataphractarii' as the 3rd option. They are just 2 upgraded CLs. As I said, I don't know enough about the period to say whether Agrippa' suggestion if using lightly armoured Steppe Horse archers would be a good match, but it sounds reasonable to me. I presume they wouldn't look much different from any other horse archers of the period.

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Re: Patrician Roman Saggitarii Cataphractarii

Post by Zippee on Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:33 pm

RogerC wrote:Errr, yes these is. BI2 rule book, page 29 - '8.1 Patrician Romans 410-493AD'. I think you are answering for 'full' Impetus, but I believe Agrippa was asking about Basic Impetus (BI2).
RogerC

Ooops, my bad - yes I was in Impetus mode not BI, apologies Embarassed
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Re: Patrician Roman Saggitarii Cataphractarii

Post by agrippa on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:06 pm

Thanks for the replies.

I was thinking while there are 2 Late Roman lists in BI2, East and West, the East timeline has a gap if you consider the Patrician List to be a continuation of the West List only. To represent the cavalry improvements in the East prior to Justinian's Army List the Patrician Army could continue the East Late Roman timeline by  representing the 2 improved CL units as Huns being absorbed into the Roman Army as 'Saggitarii Cataphractarii' honorific units. Not historically verifiable but the professional cavalry archer units had to develop from somewhere.

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