Latest topics
» Why can Longbows Fire at Point Blank Range & Not Others?
Yesterday at 5:49 pm by Zippee

» "Long Spear" if not in a large unit
Yesterday at 3:35 pm by Eques

» What are the main Changes between Impetus & Baroque?
Yesterday at 3:29 pm by Zippee

» Looking for Players in the Midlands (UK)
Yesterday at 2:53 pm by Eques

» Improving Pilum?
Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:03 am by Tarty

» Help in making a errata/FAQ
Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:07 pm by prapor

» Dragons de Vaires 2017
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:41 pm by Bobo

» What are the Benefits of being in a Group?
Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:25 pm by Tankred

» BI2-Samurai 'Big Battle'
Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:36 pm by Tankred

Vapnartak York Feb 2018- format options?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:26 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Hi everyone

I was pondering the options for the York competition and wondered …

Comments: 11

Basic Impetus 2 Comp, January 2018?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:03 am by Aurelius

Would anyone be interested in a 28mm Basic Impetus 2 tournament, Saturday …

Comments: 15

Impetus Competition Derby Worlds 2017

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:42 pm by Cyrus The Adequate

There will be a 28mm Impetus Competition at Derby World Wargames on 7th …

Comments: 47

Impetus at Derby?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:29 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Anyone interested ? 7th & 8th October at a new venue - Bruntingthorpe …

Comments: 11

Wintercon '17 July 15-16th

Sat May 06, 2017 11:44 pm by Tarty

Canberra July 15th-16th

Basic Impetus 2
28mm
Game days are Saturday and Sunday


Comments: 0

BI2 tournament - 25 March 2017

Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:08 am by RogerC

Would anyone be interested in a 28mm Basic Impetus 2 tournament on 25 March …

Comments: 24

December 2017
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031

Calendar Calendar


Battle of Ipsus with BI

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by Trebian on Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:34 pm

Not sure which is the best board to put this on, but we just did a large refight of the Battle of Ipsus 301BC using BI. Full report over here: Battle Report

Comments welcome.

Also we're fairly new to this, so if anyone can put us right on the issues raised, that'd be great.

Trebian

Trebian
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 5
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2017-05-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by RogerC on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:08 pm

That looks an interesting game, Trebian. It is good to see the rules being used for a historical battle. With so little information available about Ipsos, I’m sure it wasn’t straightforward to decide army make-ups.

In fact, elephants don’t get their Impetus bonus against light infantry; it is the last paragraph of 2.2.1 and also in 7.4. On the other hand, you are right that scythed chariots don’t get their Impetus bonus against pikes. Possibly scythed chariots need some special rule. Having said that, I’ve never really understood how such chariots could break into a phalanx, at least from the front.

I’m interested to see you are using the pikes as single units. Whenever I’ve played them I’ve put 2 units together as a large unit, to give the depth bonus and to give more staying-power. The shorter line is a disadvantage though.

A disordered unit can wheel (or move, or rally). A non-disordered unit can wheel then move, but is then disordered. This limits a unit’s freedom of movement each turn. Because of the increased possibility of losing a casualty when disordered, it is always a tough choice whether to move a disordered unit to keep it in the action, or to rally it.

I hope you continue to enjoy your games. There aren’t many Basic Impetus reports around.

RogerC

RogerC
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 153
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-05-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by Trebian on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:17 pm

Roger,

Thanks for reading and replying. If you read any other of the blog entries you'll see that I don't do non-historical games as I an't see how the rules cope with it. After all Alexander changed tactics as he encountered new foes. Who knows what he would have done if he'd run into Aztecs.

You are of course correct on the elephants and light foot, - and that is how we played it. I don't know what I was thinking, - except that light infantry should get impetus against elephants. I have corrected the blog.

The point about scythe chariots isn't that they break heavy infantry or phalanxes, they disorder them, making them vulnerable to follow up. They need that impetus in this rule set as usually they'll evaporate after turn one, having rolled one die.

The depth issue with phalangites is a one for longer discussion. In scale the units are already way too deep, so doubling the unit size makes it worse. Also, I prefer the look of the long line.

We did use it in our game of Paraitikene as the deployment in depth is specifically referenced in the sources IIRC. My preference would be only to use it in specific scenarios. It is a rare tactic as is evidenced by it being specifically referenced in sources. It shouldn't be something that is always available.

Thanks for the clarification on the wheeling. As I said that piece of drafting is very poor. Is there an FAQ where this is dealt with?

We will continue with BI every so often, but it will be modified in our group. We already don't allow the skirmisher bow machine gun that is apparently legal with the interpenetration rules as it is frankly silly in a historical re-fight.

If you want another battle report, the one on Paraitekene is here.

Trebian

Trebian
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 5
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2017-05-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by RogerC on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:56 pm

Thanks again Trebian. The Paraitekine report looks like another good game.

I don’t think there has been a formal clarification of the rule about disordered units wheeling. I’ve always played it the way I said, and no-one has disagreed.

I can understand your thoughts on ‘deep’ pike units. It just seems to make the phalanx a bit too brittle. One possibility is to play with a ‘notional’ deep unit, and adjust the way casualties are applied. It would make the phalanx clash more of a grind, which is how I imagine it was.

I can see in your Paraitekine report that there are lots of things about the rules that you are not happy with. It probably isn’t worth me trying to discuss them all. In any case, I agree with you about elephants. Very few war game rules seem to model how Successor armies used them. Your idea of a hybrid light infantry/elephant is worth thinking about. Note also that the ‘critical number’, against which the cohesion test is made, can never be less than 1, so the maximum possible VBU loss is 5 (your discussion of depth units). Mind you, it would be rare for the opposing unit to get as many hits as you were thinking of. Also, I’ve never found the ‘offset’ rule a problem as opposing units are almost never exactly parallel, and exactly aligned. A tiny bit of offset at initial deployment is enough.

Anyway, thanks again for your game reports.

RogerC

RogerC
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 153
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-05-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by jeztodd on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:30 pm

Hi was also very interested to read this - thanks for posting. I have played a couple of Big Impetus battles so far and enjoyed them both.

I wonder did you have your army split into three commands - when playing the larger battles we have found the rule (from page 16) that after a third VD has been lost per Command - all units are shaken and cannot rally to be pretty decisive. Once this happens is it just a quick step to 50% and then the whole command removed.

Cheers Jez
avatar
jeztodd
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 196
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by jeztodd on Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:13 pm

Hi just posted some pics of our last Rome v Carthage Second Punic wars Big Battles in the Battle Reports section - Rome lost

Cheers Jez
avatar
jeztodd
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 196
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by dadiepiombo on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:05 pm

Trebian, I ahev read you nice report.
I answer your question about wheel:

A Unit or Group can move or wheel. If not in Disorder, the Unit can wheel (first) and move (afterwards) for the rest of the move, but the Unit will be disordered at the end of the move.

The text means that a Unit can OR move OR wheel. So a wheel is a complete move itself.
BTW there is an exception: a Unit not in disorder can do both within the same activation, so can wheel first and then move forward for the rest of the move. At the end there is a cost to pay: the Unit is in disorder. Basically this move can make sense if used to charge.

So a Unit in disorder can wheel (but not wheel+move) and a simple wheel doesn't disorder a Unit.

As for Schyted Chariots, allowing impetus bonus against pikes would make them too deadly above all if pikes are not in LU. They cost very few and their role is to to try to disorder the phalanx, something they can achieve with 2d6.
avatar
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 883
Reputation : 33
Join date : 2014-05-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by Trebian on Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:12 pm

Jez,

No. We did not split into three commands as I didn't think it helped with the way the armies deploy. I think treating a whole army as whole army makes most sense seeing as there aren't distinct allied contingents.

Graham

Trebian
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 5
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2017-05-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by Trebian on Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:15 pm

RogerC

Been a way a few days, so missed your comments. The offset rule might only have been an issue because of specific circumstances in that game. It wasn't a problem at Ipsus.

I see the authors have clarified the wheeling rule.

Trebian

Trebian
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 5
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2017-05-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by Trebian on Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:21 pm

Dadiepiombio,

Thanks for clarifying the wheeling rule. I think it is a bit harsh on light horse and skirmishers, but I can go with it.

As for scythe chariots, - well, they're your rules so do what you want, but that makes no sense. Are they too deadly against non-pike armed heavy infantry? In practice, based on historical usage and effectiveness, SC's shouldn't get impetus against anything but blocks of heavy infantry, so what is the impetus factor for? If you are worried about their effectiveness against their VD cost, then alter the VD. Or give them a "0" VBU so they only fight with impetus and are then removed. Whatever, this solution doesn't stack up.

Trebian


Trebian
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 5
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2017-05-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Battle of Ipsus with BI

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum