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Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

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Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:41 pm

I played a number of games against warband units over the years and I have come to the conclusions that the bonus of 2 dice for large warband units against infantry should be removed. As it stands warbands are very cheap and hit enemy infantry units hard. Since they pretty much always fight as large units that gives them a bit of a bonus already against other infantry and the extra two dice makes it even harder to beat them.

I should add that we play 28mm so that tournament playing area is much tighter and makes the problem of warband infantry more difficult to deal with. This makes it harder even for cavalry to deal with warband infantry. In our regular games we play on 6' depth and my Byzantine cavalry, for instance, has lots of space to trade in shooting up the warbands. With 4' depth not so much space to trade.

As a compromise, perhaps only warbands in good order should get the bonus dice against infantry.
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:48 pm

in Impetus 2 the power of Large Units will be limited.  Wink 
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:45 pm

Thanks Lorenzo but what am I to do until then! Smile 
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Tarty on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:55 pm

dadiepiombo wrote:in Impetus 2 the power of Large Units will be limited.  Wink 

I like the sound of that .
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:45 am

hanks Lorenzo but what am I to do until then!

use Large Units Wink 
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Axebreaker on Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:48 pm

Tarty wrote:
dadiepiombo wrote:in Impetus 2 the power of Large Units will be limited.  Wink 

I like the sound of that .

I like the sound of that too. Very Happy 

Christopher
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:26 pm

dadiepiombo wrote:in Impetus 2 the power of Large Units will be limited.  Wink 

Just make them pay for their power. Currently they are extremely cheap for a storming 10 dice vs infantry, it appears Large costs nothing in the points formula. Put in a 25% or whatever extra cost and that would help solve the issue.

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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:15 am

Some have argued for no rear rank discount which would increase the cost a few points.
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by starkadder on Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:00 am

With respect, this smells like punishing the uppity barbarians rather than being based on anything tangible.

Surely the buttock-clenching fear of a warband assault upon your finely wrought ubermensch forces is something you want in a game? Particularly when you emerge bloodied and triumphant.

Even my pathetic Anatolians can deal with large warbands.
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by dadiepiombo on Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:29 am

the cost will not chnahe unless you want to buy new editions of supplements  Very Happy 
Simply troops in line (groups) will have more advantages to compensate the Large Units. Also the depth bonus will be revised.
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by dadiepiombo on Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:30 am

another issue is that the impetus bonus will be reduced not removed with losses. And for Large Units this means that it will start to be reduced with the losses of the rear unit.
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:44 am

Nice one Centurion!

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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:46 am

dadiepiombo wrote:the cost will not chnahe unless you want to buy new editions of supplements  Very Happy 
Simply troops in line (groups) will have more advantages to compensate the Large Units. Also the depth bonus will be revised.

So the plan is to leave the supplements being valid and updating the core rules?

What a particularly smart and customer focussed approach!!!!

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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Axebreaker on Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:20 pm

So the plan is to leave the supplements being valid and updating the core rules?

What a particularly smart and customer focussed approach!!!!

It appears Lorenzo didn't work for GW or if he did then he missed the class about how to properly shaft and squeeze every penny out of the customer. Very Happy 

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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:28 pm

Yes, I've always gotten the impression from Lorenzo's comments that except for EI1 the lists are sacrosanct and if changes are needed the rules will be adjusted.

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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by dadiepiombo on Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:49 am

I would prefer to make more Extras or scenarios books or campaigns books then repeat what already done. Unless really required. Extra 1 will not just re-made, but it will include more lists for the biblical period.
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by starkadder on Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:30 am

dadiepiombo wrote:I would prefer to make more Extras or scenarios books or campaigns books then repeat what already done. Unless really required. Extra 1 will not just re-made, but it will include more lists for the biblical period.

Yayy! Well done, Lorenzo.

Could you slip a Minoan/Mycenaean/Trojan series into that as well? It may not be Biblical but it's very suitable.
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by dadiepiombo on Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:23 am

yes, sure.
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Merlinus on Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:34 pm

Minoan/Mycenaean/Trojan... yes please!
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by starkadder on Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:28 pm

A little more seriously. that sort of list calls for its own volume: Armies of the Iliad including the pre-Homeric Achaeans.

By the way, I apologise if this thread has been hi-jacked. It is better discussed in its own topic.
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by dadiepiombo on Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:45 am

actually volumes have been already fixed, and all "biblical" stuff is Age of Chariot and Bronze
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by starkadder on Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:56 pm

Excellent, Lorenzo.

And for what it's worth, I like bonus dice.

But that's just me. Heh heh.
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Jim Webster on Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:36 pm

We've played a lot of BI at the club (we're trying to get them to move to Impetus, but BI is the training mechanism  Smile  )
We've had a club campaign where a lot of people have fought Gauls and frankly without the bonus dice the Gauls would be toast.
Gauls with a front rank of VBU 5 are reasonably tough when up against legionaries, but so far the Gauls, whilst winning occasional melees, haven't actually won a battle.

Jim
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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Nick B on Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:21 am

I would agree with Jim entirely.

Whilst I have only played 4-5 games of Gauls v Romans, the warbands have yet to win a battle.

To reduce their power whilst leaving points unchanged seems to doom them to defeat and this is significantly compounded by the loss of impetus bonus if casualties are taken off the front rank. Pilum would make charging suicidal.

Unless of course the Romans are being down graded in some way or warbands are receiving benefits in another way?

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Re: Removing Bonus dice to large warbands

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:55 pm

As the one who started this conversation I must say that I am wavering a bit on the topic. My Middle Assyrians beat a Gaul army last week. It was a 600 point game on a 8' by 6' table which allowed my T troops and Chariots to trade space for effect. My opponent also rolled poorly. On a 6' by 4' table with 350 points the result was quite different so depth of the table seems to me to be part of the challenge.
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