Latest topics
» Vapnartak. Sunday 4th February 2018 Knavesmere Stand York Racecourse
Yesterday at 7:46 am by Brighouse

» Impetus videos
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:26 pm by Taffekles

» Basic Impetus 2 Comp, January 2018?
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:21 pm by Taffekles

» Lords&Sevants 2nd edition
Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:01 pm by dadiepiombo

» Ace in the Hole: Aggressive deployment
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:26 am by Zennor

» Measuring sticks
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:48 pm by dadiepiombo

» Various weapons - are we doing it right?
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:21 am by dadiepiombo

» Anglo Dutch list released
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:52 pm by AndyT

» Scots Covenanters
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:55 am by paulbgau

Vapnartak. Sunday 4th February 2018 Knavesmere Stand York Racecourse

Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:54 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Hi Gents

York is the usual first event in the UK Impetus calendar. This year …

Comments: 9

Basic Impetus 2 Comp, January 2018?

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:03 am by Aurelius

I've brought the confirmed details for the Basic Impetus competition to the …

Comments: 32

Vapnartak York Feb 2018- format options?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:26 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Hi everyone

I was pondering the options for the York competition and wondered …

Comments: 11

Impetus Competition Derby Worlds 2017

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:42 pm by Cyrus The Adequate

There will be a 28mm Impetus Competition at Derby World Wargames on 7th …

Comments: 47

Impetus at Derby?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:29 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Anyone interested ? 7th & 8th October at a new venue - Bruntingthorpe …

Comments: 11

Wintercon '17 July 15-16th

Sat May 06, 2017 11:44 pm by Tarty

Canberra July 15th-16th

Basic Impetus 2
28mm
Game days are Saturday and Sunday


Comments: 0

January 2018
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
293031    

Calendar Calendar


Composite bows and Arquebus

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Composite bows and Arquebus

Post by starkadder on Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:12 am

I am having difficulty understanding the rationale for the firing factors of composite bows and arquebus.

Point Blank (5U)  
Comp Bow   Arquebus
A  3/5         4/5
B  2/4         3/4
C  1/2

Short Range (5-15U)
A  0/1          1/2
B  0/1          1/2
C  -2/0

To a point, I understand the drop-off in effectiveness although a composite bow can outrange a long-bow and with a much higher rate of fire. I can give a whole range of references if anyone's interested.

It's the arquebus that is intriguing me. Even an optimist wouldn't rate an arquebus over 100 metres and the rate of fire is appalling. They just seem way over-powered and over-accurate compared to composites.

It's not an issue when comps are fighting comps or arquebus are against arquebus. It becomes quite stark when they run up against each other. Does this mean that I shouldn't be playing such battles?

I'm happy to be shown the error of my ways. I get that a lot.
avatar
starkadder
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 302
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 64
Location : Tahmoor, NSW, Oz

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Composite bows and Arquebus

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:53 am

I'd suggest it is a game mechanic to reflect the improved weapon tech that the arquebus represented.

If it didn't have any form of superiority then it would never be taken.

Granicus Gaugamela
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 442
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Composite bows and Arquebus

Post by starkadder on Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:01 am

It wasn't a technical improvement so much as a training improvement.

An arquebusier could be trained in a day. Bowmen required years (particularly long-bowmen) and were hard to replace. It was a low-bid option that only replaced crossbowmen, initially (another expensive intricate device).

The technology eventually caught up but not until the 19th Century could a musket outrange a bow. And its rate of fire was still a lot lower.

I don't much care about changing it. I just want to know the rationale.
avatar
starkadder
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 302
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 64
Location : Tahmoor, NSW, Oz

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Composite bows and Arquebus

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:08 am

Maybe the rationale is a larger number of rapid trained arquebusiers are represented by a single stand than the equivalent stand of archers?

Granicus Gaugamela
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 442
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Composite bows and Arquebus

Post by starkadder on Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:53 am

That was about the only thing I could conclude, GG.

Then I thought about my happy-go-lucky born in the saddle lads (Anatolian Turks as you know).

The idea of being outshot automatically by a small bunch of fops in floppy hats seemed rather nonsensical. These composite bows had a longer range than longbow (true, tested and all). I had a hard enough time dealing with them in the Yorkists. It was when the blokes with the fizzy guns kept doing it to me that I found it strange.

We tend to view through the lens of "what happened next" and assume an inexorable and inevitable change. Society and technology don't always work that way. Or we would have had stainless steel Puckle guns in the 17th Century.
avatar
starkadder
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 302
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 64
Location : Tahmoor, NSW, Oz

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Composite bows and Arquebus

Post by Aurelius on Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:02 pm

I'm reminded of a BBC television production, about 2/3 years ago, where a reproduction arquebus / caliver, based on the finds from the Elizabethan "Alderney Wreck" was test fired. It was an awesome weapon. If I remember correctly it destroyed the armoured target. You could see immediatley why firearms had replaced bows of any description. Rates of fire were low, but you only needed to be hit once... The psychological effects were also significant.

The artefacts from the Alderney wreck are probably beyond the date range for most Impetus armies, but the English were very slow at adopting the technology. Continental armies adopted firearms much earlier, and it would seem with good reason.

Some interesting quotes and discussion at http://www.alderneywreck.com/

TD

Aurelius
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 177
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Composite bows and Arquebus

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:46 pm

Composite Bow B and C represent bow armed cavalry so including them in the comparison isn't completely relevant. The whole effect of bow armed cavalry is shown in the ability of CL to move around the table at will, ganging up on individual units and evading nasty attacks. The use of Composite Bow B makes them very effective in delivering this effect. So while the rating is slightly inferior to Arquebus on the table the overall tactical is still very powerful in Impetus.

The Ottoman Janissaries moved from Composite Bow to Arquebus very early on (the last quarter of the 15th century.) The shift to the arquebus must have been done because the weapon system was considered superior to composite bow as these were professional troops who trained full time.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 788
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Composite bows and Arquebus

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum