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Loss of impetuousness

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Loss of impetuousness

Post by RogerC on Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:01 am

This is a follow-up to something that was said in the long thread about pursuits, but I've started it as a separate thread as it is a different point.

Rule 2.6.1 says that an impetuous unit ceases to be so immediately it loses 50% of its VBU. The question was how this applied to a large unit (LU). I'd always seen it played such that it was the front unit that had to lose 50%. However, in the earlier thread there was the suggestion that you considered the VBU of the whole LU, so that impetuousness was lost when the rear unit was lost, assuming the two units forming the LU had equal VBU.

Here is an thread from the old forum where Lorenzo clarifies that you need to consider the VBU of the front unit
http://impetus.forumsland.com/impetus-about2493.html&highlight=impetuous
Those impetuous warband LUs stay impetuous for a long time!

I can see that even Lorenzo was wondering whether that should be re-thought. It is always interesting to talk about how we think history is or is not correctly reflected by the rules, Sometimes that can be different from deciding what the rules actually are.

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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Tarty on Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:19 am

It's an interesting one this one Roger . I think the key is that a LU is actually considered 1 unit even though it can be made up of two stands ( in the case of large warbands ). So we've always played it once the rear stand has gone you've reached your 50%.
If you've got an upgrade on the front stand however that might mean a possible hit on the front as well before you reach your half way mark  Wink .... interested to hear what others think.
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Jim Webster on Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:56 am

I confess it isn't anything we've ever thought of, by the time a unit has lost 50% of it's VBU it's on the way out anyway  Embarassed 

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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by starkadder on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:37 am

So to summarise:

A Large Unit is always a large unit even when it's no longer large.

An impetuous unit is impetuous until half of it goes home tired and emotional.

Hmmm....

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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by dadiepiombo on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:42 am

you have to consider a Large Unit as a Large Unit even if it is only one base (left).
For impetuosity and for impetus, consider the first/frontal unit.

Now, in Impetus 2 I'm considering to reduce impetus bonus progressively. So one loss is one loss in impetus.
For Large Units this would start from the rear unit, otherwise their impetus bonus would be about infinite.
This is one of the few things that will reduce the power of Large Units in general.
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:44 am

I like it.

Will Impetus bonus become more expensive given it will have a longer lasting effect?

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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by starkadder on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:50 am

It works for me but I'd like to see it in practice.
Maybe we could run a small test.
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:56 am

Imagine what it will do to Ralphie's Crusader Knights...

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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by dadiepiombo on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:03 am

no change in costs!
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:13 am

dadiepiombo wrote:no change in costs!

Fark... that's going to tip a few lists on their head!

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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by starkadder on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:25 am

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:Imagine what it will do to Ralphie's Crusader Knights...

And mine, I hasten to add. A bit more accountancy but I like it.
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Tarty on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:27 am

Couldn't up the cost that would effect a whole bunch of changes in the army lists.
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by dadiepiombo on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:40 am

troops with higher impetus are Warbands and CPs.
Now, warbands will not benefit of the progressive reduction of impetus as their impetus will start to drop with first losses.
CP will get a benefit, but CP are expensive enough.
In most cases their Impetus Bonus will be used against other CPs.
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Count Stilico on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:59 am

good
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by pw4379 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:35 pm

I like the fact that the impetus bonus is totally lost once you have suffered a casualty. It really emphasises the value of fresh troops.

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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Jim Webster on Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:09 pm

I think it could need a lot of playtesting. There are some interactions, for example French Knights and English Longbows that might change a lot, because at the moment the English need only 1 hit and the French will probably bounce. Now 1 hit will only drop their Impetus by 1 and they'll probably ride through the longbowmen
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:17 pm

Yes, I agree with Philip and Jim. Going to incremental loss of impetus is a major change in the game and needs considerable play testing. My group is initially skeptical of the change. In Impetus cavalry usually gets one good charge then begins to attrition down which seems realistic to me.
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Tarty on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:13 pm

Yep some play testing will have to be done on this one.
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Re: Loss of impetuousness

Post by Gilgamesh on Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:50 am

I do like the way impetus is currently handled but if there is going to be graduated loss how about linking the ability of a unit to hold onto its impetuousness to discipline? Better disciplined units would be able to maintain their capability in the field, while "barbarian" types would soon loose the cohesion to make impactful charges. For example 'C' units could maintain the current rules, reflecting how they quickly break down under the friction of combat; 'B' units might be able to handle 1 step loss, after which they lose impetus (e.g start at 3, then 2 then 0); 'A' units could handle a 2 step loss after which they lose all remaining impetus. Makes better disciplined troops more valuable!

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