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Potential charges and counter-charges.

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Potential charges and counter-charges.

Post by Oldentired on Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:21 am

A quick question sequencing and potential charges.

First, under the latest amendments does a unit complete a charge move if having made a potential charge? Or do they stop at their normal move distance.

Second, about the sequencing of potential charges and counter-charges.

Here's the example:
I have a unit of mounted who declare a potential charge against a unit of skirmishers.

The skirmishers declare an evade, and a mounted unit behind them declares an opportunity charge. This converts to a counter-charge as per the relevant rule.

Is this set of moves sequenced? We had a... discussion at the club this weekend about whether the potential charge is the end of a movement before the counter-charge contacts. My interpretation is that the potential charge is, as stated, "a charge in all respects", and that the counter-charge is an "interruption", meaning that the potential charge is not completed, but that the counter-charge takes place during my charge move.

It's important, because had the potential charge been completed (i.e. ended once the skirmishers ran off), then no impetus bonus.

Anyone able to clarify?

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Re: Potential charges and counter-charges.

Post by RogerC on Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:20 pm

Firstly, I don't think the opportunity charge 'converts' to a counter-charge. A counter-charge only occurs when a charge is declared against the unit. In your case, no charge was declared against the mounted unit.

Next, if a potential charge is declared, the attacking unit doesn't have to complete a charge move (with charge move bonus) if the unit it is 'charging' evades. It can stop at either the point it would have contacted the evaders, or the point it would reach in a normal move.

Advanced Impetus then makes clear that if the attacker is contacted by an opportunity charge during a potential charge it will have impetus. It is only when the charges skirmishers evade that the potential charge converts into a normal move.

So if the opportunity charge is declared before the attacker contacts the skirmishers, then the attacker has impetus. If the attacker stops immediately on contacting the skirmishers no opportunity charge can be declared subsequently, as the attacker has finished its move (an opportunity charge must interrupt the attacker's movement). However, if the attacker continues to move after the skirmishers have evaded, then I think their move has converted to a normal one, and an opportunity charge then will mean the attackers don't have impetus.

I know that the last point is my interpretation of the Advanced Impetus wording, but it seems to fit what is said. The problem is deciding when an evade occurs, and I agree this isn't clear.

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Re: Potential charges and counter-charges.

Post by RogerC on Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:06 pm

I'm now beginning to doubt the last step in my post above.

Advanced Impetus says that, if there is a potential charge, 'if contact is not made because the charging unit's target evaded and no other enemy made an opportunity charge, the Potential Charge is considered to convert to a normal movement'. Clearly, if the attacker says it is moving just to reach the skirmishers, then the opportunity charge would have to be declared before it gets to the initial position of the skirmishers who have evaded, as an opportunity charge must interrupt movement (and so cannot occur after a movement phase has been completed). Thus, an enemy has made an opportunity charge and the conversion to a normal move doesn't happen.

However, if the attacker declares a move beyond the initial position of the evading skirmishers, the defender can declare the opportunity charge in that part of the movement beyond the skirmishers' initial position. Does the conversion to a normal move occur only if no opportunity charge is declared at all, or only if the opportunity charge is declared to occur before the attacker reaches the initial position of the skirmishers? I'm beginning to think that the Advanced Impetus wording means the former.

In that case, if a unit declares a potential charge and there is any opportunity charge, the attacker will have impetus. That seems easier to play than trying to decide the exact moment of 'conversion' of the potential charge to a normal move.

Complicated, isn't it?

RogerC


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Re: Potential charges and counter-charges.

Post by Oldentired on Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:44 am

RogerC wrote:
Does the conversion to a normal move occur only if no opportunity charge is declared at all, or only if the opportunity charge is declared to occur before the attacker reaches the initial position of the skirmishers? I'm beginning to think that the Advanced Impetus wording means the former.

Extremely complicated. I'm defaulting to there being no circumstance where the unit that declared the potential charge can be caught stationary.

1. Opportunity Charge is only possible as an interruption (5.8.2), and only as an interruption to movement. And the Advanced Rules state specifically " If it is contacted by an enemy unit making an Opportunity charge against it, then the Unit declaring the Potential Charge can benefit the Impetus bonus if it would do normally."

2. Counter-charge is only allowed as a reply to a charge declaration - it's only allowed when a enemy charge starts within the frontage of counter-charging unit. In which case both units are charging. You couldn't declare a counter-charge on a unit that has moved normally.

Now, theoretically you could Opportunity Charge the Potential-Charging-Unit after the Potential Charge has completed (i.e. the unit has completed it's movement), but 5.8.2 specify that you can only do so as an interrupt.

But! I might be charged if the unit is on opportunity, and I moved into it's ZOC (as per p.23). Here the skirmishers have run away, and I've wandered into a ZOC. But again the Advanced Rules specify that if an Opportunity Charge is declared, i would benefit from my impetus bonus.

I can't actually see a situation where my unit was caught stationary.  Neutral

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Re: Potential charges and counter-charges.

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:24 pm

The potential charge carries through the full movement phase of the move and ends where the unit stops.

What we do is the following.

1. The moving unit declares that it wants to occupy the ground of the unit capable of evading.

2. The defending unit decides whether it wants to stand or evade (or counter charge but we never see this in practice.)

3. If the defending unit evades the attacker moves forward and must at least occupy part of the ground of the evading unit but can continue to its full movement.

4. If the defender stands the attacker moves to contact.

If a unit on opportunity interrupts the movement of the advancing unit then both units get impetus.
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Re: Potential charges and counter-charges.

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:36 pm

You seem to be getting the Counter Charge and Opportunity Charge confused. Counter Charge only applies if a unit is actually getting charged, Opportunity can happen any time a unit moves within range of the unit on Opportunity (and all the benefits of Impetus apply).

Cheers,

Dennis
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