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Shooting within woods

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Shooting within woods

Post by Nick B on Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:38 am

I understand the negative firing modifiers for firing at a unit within but on the edge of wood. However, I cannot find (I have probably missed Embarassed ) any rules for two units, both within a wood, shooting at each other if within LOS.

Could some one confirm the rules/negatives or point me in the right direction in the book, please.

Many thanks

Nick

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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Aurelius on Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:50 pm

Not sure I can help with this one...

See this link from the old forum;

http://impetus.forumsland.com/impetus-about3656.html

and then this one;

http://impetus.forumsland.com/impetus-about4643.html&highlight=shooting

Don't think it was ever resolved,

Shocked

TD

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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:33 pm

When two units are in the same woods the only limitation is line of sight which limits the range of fire. The -2 modifier is only used when firing into woods. A bit counter intuitive I know but it seems to work and I suppose the rationalization is that both units now enjoy the benefits of the terrain and are bolder in their attack.
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:37 pm

The way I read it, there is a penalty if you shoot AT someone on the edge of a woods but no penalty to the unit that shoots FROM within a wood.   Only penalty is the LOS is reduced to 5U inside a wood (see page 18).   Combat is affected but not shooting.

However, I would argue that a unit can only fire if it is ON the edge of a woods NOT INSIDE it, as that would be an obstacle to the uninterrupted line required to be able to see and shoot at a target.   Using logic, I would say that if there is a -2 penalty for shooting AT a unit on the edge of a woods, then that would mean that a unit shooting FROM a woods would have to be ON THE EDGE of a woods to be able to fire out (not from within a woods).

If 2 units are firing AT each other from WITHIN a woods, then logically there would have to be some sort of penalty (-1 or -2), as any obstacle such as trees and bushes hinder any sort of shooting (effects LOS and as a physical obstacle). The only penalty in the rules is a -2 so that would seem appropriate.

Does that make sense?

Cheers,

Dennis
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:15 pm

What you say Dennis seems reasonable but it is not what the rules say. LOS is reduced to 5U in woods and in practice that means that units must come within PB range to fire at each other. But there is no firing penalty for two units in the same woods firing at each other once LOS has been established.
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:47 pm

Thanks Mate, but like I said I try to apply real life experience and logic to a situation and anyone that even tries to sight on a target with any kind of obstacle in the way will find it very difficult indeed. For example, hold your hand out in front of you and then try to see anything in front of you.

I know there is no penalty in the rules but if you read that for firing you must have an uninterrupted line between the firer and the target, a wood is an interruption to that line (as is an enemy or friendly unit for example), and so a penalty should apply.

Not trying to argue. Just my thoughts.

Cheers,

Dennis
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:41 pm

Yes, it does seem at first glance at bit odd but when one considers that at PB both sides are fighting at very close quarters perhaps the trees don't really matter that much in end. I think it could be argued both ways.
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:00 am

Quite right but it still seems strange that a unit firing into a wood gets a penalty but those inside don't. Good arguments for both points of view I guess but just use the rule in reverse and you'll see my point. Imagine a unit on the edge of a wood firing at a unit within 5U inside a wood. The unit on the inside gets a -2 penalty for firing at the unit on the edge but the unit on the edge gets no penalty. Make sense?

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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:48 pm

Perhaps an amendment is required for the next version. Any further comments? Does my logic make sense?

Dennis
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:24 pm

The -2 for firing at units on the edge of the wood applies to units that are outside of the woods firing in.

Take a look at the following discussion.

http://impetus.forumsland.com/impetus-about4643.html&highlight=woods+firing
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:42 pm

Thanks for that. I couldn't access the link originally but I also found this. See link below in answer to the question:

If opposing units are shooting, both within woods and within 5U, at each other (one would be reacting), do they count the -2 dice modifier for shooting at a target within woods?

http://impetus.forumsland.com/impetus-about3656.html

Answer from Lorenzo is Yes they do

Contradictory answers.   Which one do we use?

Dennis
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:16 pm

"yes I confirm. The disvantage is for units out of the woods firing at a unit within."

That seems to clear to me. The possibility of the -2 penalty applying to all units in woods was part of the discussion and Lorenzo did not affirm this point.
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Aurelius on Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:52 pm

Hi GC,

You appear to have missed the statement in thread 3656 (as linked above) of 2012.

My question then gained the opposite, equally clear, answer.

In 2012 I asked;

"Hi all,

Getting stuck on a simple question... (can't see an answer on discussion threads).

If opposing units are shooting, both within woods and within 5U, at each other (one would be reacting), do they count the -2 dice modifier for shooting at a target within woods?"

Answer from Lorenzo;
"yes they do."

In thread 4643 of 2013, as you say, the alternative answer was given.

We await resolution Question



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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by RogerC on Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:50 pm

Aurelius, in the 2013 thread GC identified you referred to the earlier 2012 thread. Grenadiergrandson then emphasised the inconsistency between the earlier comment from Lorenzo and other discussions. It was only after that inconsistency had been highlighted that Lorenzo made the comment quoted by GC.

Hence,  I'd take the later comment by Lorenzo as the current ruling. Lorenzo is allowed to change his mind. In this case he was aware of his earlier ruling but specifically gave a different one.

So for me the -2 applies only when shooting into a wood, not when shooting within a wood.

RogerC

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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:28 pm

I understand the two threads in the same manner as RogerC. The later ruling is the correct interpretation because it is later and includes discussion on the earlier thread.
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Aurelius on Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:16 pm

Fair enough, I do not have any preference either way, as long as it is clear.

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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:47 pm

In real life, shooting from outside a wood INTO a wood is harder to do than being on the edge shooting OUT. The shooter on the edge of the woods, shooting out, would use the trees/woods as cover but the shooter on the outside shooting in, would have the trees/woods as a hinderance to his shooting.

Shooting at each other from within a woods is rather more difficult, as both shooters would have the trees/woods as obstacles to their effectiveness. Branches, leaves, bushes, etc can actually block LoS and can deflect an arrow, javelin or stone from a sling.

Minus 2 would be a good penalty. You pick up bonus dice for being at PB anyway, so no great loss. In effect, units would fire with their base VBU.

Makes sense?

But if the latter answer is what you're working on then my explanations above don't count for anything. Maybe an amendment for the next version.

Dennis
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:34 am

just to clear. The rules says "Units at the edge of a wood". So the penalty is just if you fire from outside to a unit that is at the edge, that is within 5U inside a wood (so in a position that can fire outside).

Extending the penalty to both Unist duelling inside a wood don't produce any advantage as both are in the same condition.
One can argue that most of the arrows or javelin would end into the trees. Well the result of melee or shooting in Impetus relies more on morale. Fighting so close for missile troops is anyway psicologically hard. The duel is more decisive. Also more deadly confrontation is always welcome in Impetus as it keeps the engagements faster. Wink
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Re: Shooting within woods

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:38 am

Thanks Lorenzo, I understand that it is meant to be for a unit from the outside shooting at a unit inside, that makes sense. Just thought that a penalty would apply if both units were inside a wood, but if you want the engagements to move faster I can live with that.

Dennis
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