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Han Chinese Lists

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Han Chinese Lists

Post by jorneto on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:54 pm

I propose a few changes to the two Han Chinese beta lists as follows:

Western Han
Add option for CM/VB5 without crossbows
Increase the heavy chariots from 0-2 to 0-3
Choice between having large units made of close combat foot and crossbows or having them in separate units
Add option for S troops with bow
substitute “southern tribal warriors” by “Nam or Dian tribal warriors”
Add to notes:  cavalry includes dependent states troops

Eastern Han
Add option for S troops with bow

WESTERN HAN CHINESE (206BC-23 AD) - (VOLUME 10)
CS: Poor (0 pts) or Average (12 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
1-4 CM - Cavalry (*) 10 5 2 B 3 26 Crossbow B
OR CM - Cavalry (*) 10 5 2 B 3 23
0-4 CM- Conscript or Tribal Cavalry 10 4 1 C 1 15
0-3 CGP - Heavy Chariots (*) 8 6 3 B 3 27 Various
1-6 CL- Horse Archers 12 3 1 B 1 25 Comp. Bow B
0-3 CL - Light Cavalry 12 4 2 B 1 21
0-8 FL - Halberdiers & Swordsmen (*) 8 5 3 B 2/3 22
0-8 T - Crossbowmen 6 4 0 B 1 21 Crossbow A
0-1 T - Guard Crossbowmen 6 4 0 A 2 26 Crossbow A
0-2 FP - Spearmen 5 5 1 B 2 21 Long Spear
0-4 S - Crossbowmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Crossbow B
OR S - Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Comp. Bow B
0-16 FL - Close combat foot 6 5 3 B 2 20
+ T - Supporting crossbowmen 6 4 0 B 1 16 Crossbow A
0-8 FL - Conscript Foot (*) 8 4 2 C 1/3 12
0-8 T - Conscript crossbowmen 6 3 0 C 1 14 Crossbow A
0-4 FP - Peasants 5 3 1 C 1 7
0-4 FL – Nam or Dian Tribal Warriors 8 4 4 C 2 12(9) Impetuous
0-2 ART - Bolt shooters and catapults - 1 0 B 1 20 Art C
0-2 ART - Large crossbows 3 1 0 B 1 15 Art B

NOTES AND OPTIONS.
Close Combat Foot must form Large Units with Supporting Crossbowmen. T must form the rear rank and can fire without -2 penalty. They cannot be used together with FL-Halberdiers & Swordsmen and T-Crossbowmen.
Conscript Foot cannot exceed Conscript Crossbowmen.
You can upgrade one or more Units of Conscript Crossbowmen to VBU=4. Final cost 16pts.
Nam or Dian Tribal Warriors can form Large Units.
Chariots were used only until 113BC.


EASTERN HAN CHINESE (23-220 AD) - (VOLUME 10)
CS: Poor (0 pts) or Average (12 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-2 CM- Elite Cavalry (*) 10 6 2 B 3 29
2-12 CM - Cavalry (*) 10 5 2 B 3 26 Crossbow B
OR CM- Cavalry (*) 10 5 2 B 3 23
0-4 CM- Conscript or Tribal Cavalry 10 4 1 C 1 15
1-6 CL- Horse Archers 12 3 1 B 1 25 Comp. Bow B
0-2 FP - Spearmen 5 5 1 B 2 21 Long Spear
0-8 FL - Halberdiers & Swordsmen (*) 8 5 3 B 2/3 22
0-8 T - Conscript crossbowmen 6 3 0 C 1 14 Crossbow A
0-8 FL - Conscript Foot (*) 8 4 2 C 1/3 12
0-4 S - Crossbowmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Crossbow B
OR S - Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Comp. Bow B
0-4 FP - Peasants 5 3 1 C 1 7
0-4 FL - Tribal Warriors 8 4 4 C 2 12(9) Impetuous
0-2 ART - Light Artillery 3 1 0 B 1 15 Art B
0-12 FOR - Wagons used as fortifications - - - - - 5

NOTES AND OPTIONS.
You can upgrade one or more Units of Conscript Crossbowmen to VBU=4. Final cost 16pts.
Tribal Warriors can form Large Units.

Also to add some flavor it might be nice to have the Chinese names in the lists. I compiled a list, but take note I don’t know the language!
Many of my sources use the Wade-Giles transliteration instead of the more modern Pinyin which was an extra difficulty. This could serve as a starting point but as certainly there are errors, any corrections are very welcomed.

Elite/Guard cavalry – Wei Shiqi, Liang Jia Zi or Yueqi
Lance/spear cavalry – Geqi
Dagger-axe cavalry – Jiqi
Horse crossbows – Nuqi
Horse Archers – Huqi
Light(swift,agile) cavalry – Piao qi
War chariots (heavy and light) - Li Gu, Ling Liehche or Chang Gu

Foot Guards, Gentlemen at the Palace – Wei Shi, Lang Zhong
Foot Elite units: Winged forest orphans, Skilled soldiers – Qi Chi, Cai Guan
Foot Halberdiers – Qi Ji
Foot Swordsmen – Jian Bubing
Double armed swordsmen – Shuang Jian Bubing
Spearmen – Mao Bubing
Foot crossbows – Nu Bubing
Foot Archers – Hu Bubing
Conscripts – Shuzu (for example conscript crossbowmen – Nu Shuzu)
Laborers – He Chu Zu
Freed Convicts – Chi Xiong

Small stone thrower – Bao Che
Bolt-Shooter – Jiu Niu
Multiple bolt-shooter – Yuang Rong

Dependent States – Shuguo
General-in-Chief – Da Jiangjun
General of the Rear - Hou Jiangjun
General of the Left - Zuo Jiangjun
General of the Right - You Jiangjun
General of the Van - Shen Jiangjun


Last edited by jorneto on Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:45 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by RogerC on Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:28 pm

Thank you Jornato for the revision. More chariots is good, and I'm sure you are right that the medium cavalry didn't all have crossbows

I believe that if the 'supporting crossbowmen' don't have to be supporting, they are underpriced. They need to be 21 points if they are an independent unit. In the Medieval Sui Dynasty list, which allows crossbowmen to be independent or supporting, there is a reduced cost when supporting. Note also that the Close Combat Foot move slower than normal FL because of their attached crossbowmen so if they aren't supported, they should move faster and cost more.

The recent tendency, in e.g. EI5, is to say that if any of the appropriate FL have supporting archers/crossbowmen, then all must. I know you wanted to give the possibility of independent crossbowmen, but maybe the 'if any then all' rule could apply to the Close Combat foot?

Better still, to avoid issues with the points differences, why not instead add a separate option of (independent) crossbowmen? Then, I could choose between having large units of (FL + T) as in the existing list or having independent FL and independent T by choosing different units from the list. Independent FL are already there as Halberdiers.

Incidentally, the points value of the 'Guard Crossbowmen' is wrong in the original beta list. They should be 21 points like all other B class 4/0 crossbowmen. I don't think the extra 2 points they have in the list means they should be A class. 2 points doesn't seem enough for that.

Glad someone more knowledgeable than me is looking at the Chinese lists. Do you know anything about Chinese armies before the Han?

RogerC


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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by jorneto on Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:46 pm

You're right. I overlooked movement and points costs.
I agree with your suggestions and changed the list.

I believe the crossbows costs are now correct. I upgraded the Guard to "A" class (and 26pts) to make them different from the normal ones.

I'm not sure about the reduced cost for supporting crossbows. Many lists in EI5 keep the normal cost for those troops.


Don't know much about earlier dynasties...

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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by RogerC on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:28 pm

Thank you Jorneto. I have a couple more thoughts that you may want to consider.

Personally, I like to have the ability to have both supported and non-supported FL in my Chinese armies. It gives more flexibility. However, if you want to apply the 'if one supported all supported' rule to the Han, to make them different from most other beta list Chinese armies, then you will have to increase the number of units allowed for the 'supported' case. The list above currently only allows a maximum of 4 Close Combat foot (0-8 includes the supporting crossbowmen). That is halved for 300/350 point armies. Maybe saying 0-16 units would be better. Otherwise, if you choose supported Fl your army won't have much infantry, which I doubt is right for the Han.

I see that you've also made the supporting crossbowmen full price. I know that they are full price in the EI5 lists, but there they can be supporting or not, as the player chooses, so full price is the only option. There aren't many examples of compulsory supporting archers in other lists, but I note that Sparabara archers in the Persian lists in EI4 have reduced cost, as compared to non-supporting archers with the same stats. So if the supporting crossbowmen can't be independent, I'd take them back to 16 points.

I hope this doesn't sound as if I'm making difficulties for you in your revision of the list. I don't know all that much about Han armies, but I've used them a few times in games, so have an interest in them. I'm thus looking at your changes in the context of the game, rather than history.

RogerC

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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by jorneto on Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:03 pm

Changes done.

RogerC wrote:I hope this doesn't sound as if I'm making difficulties for you in your revision of the list. I don't know all that much about Han armies, but I've used them a few times in games, so have an interest in them. I'm thus looking at your changes in the context of the game, rather than history.

No problem. That's the point of this foruns, after all. Besides, I'm new in the Impetus world, and am still feeling my way around.

Regarding the lists, as a general rule I think they should start as historical as possible and then changing as necessary to make them "reasonably" interesting from a gaming viewpoint. Discussion in foruns are very important in this process.

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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by Boris the blade on Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:50 pm

I mate I have looked at the cost of your chariots in the first list.

The cost breakdown is
Type gives you CGP is -2
Movement of 8 is +2
VBU of 6 =18
I of 3 = 3
D of B = 5
Weapon of Various is 3

All up they should be worth 29 points.


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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by jorneto on Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:13 pm

It seems CGP get the same points discount on movement as CGL. See for example The Classical Indians in EI4. They are priced as 28 and not 30pts.

However, I didn't find anywhere any specific mention for that -2.

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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by Boris the blade on Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:32 pm

Hi Jorneto

I reposted the list costs from the old forum to a new one in this section of the forum.

A CGP gets the discount where a CGL does not

I am unsure as why the class indian list they are 2 cheaper, hopefully the owner will post

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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:17 am

There must be another calculation for CGL and CGP in the costing.

In the Middle Assyrian List the CGL chariots are 10 5 2 B with Various Weapons at 22 points.

10U = 4
VBU 5 = 12
Impetus = 2
Dis B = 5
Various = 3
Total = 26  

I think Chariots get a reduction because they cannot echelon or oblique and cannot use command rally. In looking at the costing of chariots in various lists it seems to me that chariots do not include costs related to their movement rate (perhaps like impetuous troops.) If you look at the Sargonid chariots in the Beta lists they are
CGP- Chariots (*) 8 6 5 B 3 29 Various weapons

If you calculate the actual cost including movement it is 31 but if you remove the 2 points for 8U movement rate it comes out at 29 points as listed.
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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by Boris the blade on Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:49 am

So it appears Chariots now get a reduction of 4 points instead of the 2 listed in the points chart.

That would make sense

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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:41 am

In practice yes but not necessarily since it is the movement that seems to be discounted. However CGP usually move 8U and get a -2 in the point list which works out to the same as 10U movement which is 4 points. But look at the Sumerian list

CGP- Battle cars (*) 6 5 3 C 3 13
Points 0 12 3 0 13

but shouldn't it be 11 points since CGP get a -2 for type?
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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by Boris the blade on Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:16 am

Hmm the plot thickens, well hopefully dadiepiombo will find this and maybe reveal the ancient cost cutting techniques of Indian and Assyrian chariotory. I am sure other chariot makers would be keen to copy some of their techniques.

Thanks Boris

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Re: Han Chinese Lists

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:41 pm

Gaius Cassius wrote:In practice yes but not necessarily since it is the movement that seems to be discounted. However CGP usually move 8U and get a -2 in the point list which works out to the same as 10U movement which is 4 points. But look at the Sumerian list

CGP- Battle cars (*) 6 5 3 C    3   13
     Points              0    12     3       0         13

but shouldn't it be 11 points since CGP get a -2 for type?  

First time I have ever quoted myself. My math is wrong. The

CGP- Battle cars (*) 6    5       3     C    3   13
     Points              0    12     3       0        15

With the -2 for CGP 15 becomes 13 points and the mystery is solved. Chariots do not pay for movement.
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