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Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

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Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

Post by grenadiergrandson on Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:12 pm

Hi all,

Just checking if I've got this right -

A large unit of Warband (Impetuous FP/FL) charge into contact with Roman FP Legionaries and CM. The FP are the main unit in the combat, the CM are supports.

Does the presence of CM in the combat as support still prevent the Warband from counting Impetus and depth bonus? (They get depth bonus v foot only).

Cheers


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Re: Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:51 pm

You got it right!
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Re: Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

Post by Zippee on Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:27 pm

Hmmm not so convinced.

Any contact with long spears negates impetus, this we know but I'm not sure that foot would lose depth bonus due to the presence of mounted.

Note the difference in statement:

7.3 "Large Units of CP or Warbands (FP or FL) get 2 dice bonus against infantry"

7.4 "...the bonus is given to Mounted troops that charge any enemy except...long spears..."

Mounted don't negate depth bonus, you only get it against foot. The combat VBU is calculated against the main unit, ergo depth bonus counts in the example given.

If the warband were pike would they get 3 dice or 1 in the same situation?

I can't recall this being clarified on either forum or list
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Re: Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

Post by grenadiergrandson on Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:11 pm

Thanks for the replies. My interpretation goes from Ex Imp 2 p43 and the little diagram at the bottom about losing Impetus. It says 'Impetus Bonus does not apply even if the troops that annul it are fighting as a support.'

So by a similar logic (????) I supposed any contact against mounted by warband would lose their depth bonus, but after reading zippee I wonder if I'm trying to compare apples and oranges...

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Re: Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

Post by Zippee on Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:11 pm

Exactly,

Impetus is negated by various things - and it has been explicitly stated that contact with any unit that negates, counts.

Depth bonus isn't negated by any enemy - however it only applies against certain opponents.

The two conditions are polar opposites Shocked
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Re: Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:57 am

The depth bonus is an interesting point. In the case of a large pike unit fighting both infantry and mounted units I can't see any workable convention but that the pike would get the depth bonus depending on which of the opposing two was the main unit.  By logic the warband would be entitled to the depth bonus depending on which of the two is the main unit it is contact against.

On the other hand, in the scenario with the pike the rank bonus applies to both infantry and mounted units. The only question is how many dice. In the case of the warband these units do not get dice against mounted but do get dice against infantry. It is an either or situation. It seems to me in this scenario that the analogous situation is more in line with impetus which is "either or" rather than "how many."
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Re: Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

Post by Zippee on Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:13 am

Gaius Cassius wrote:
On the other hand, in the scenario with the pike the rank bonus applies to both infantry and mounted units. The only question is how many dice. In the case of the warband these units do not get dice against mounted but do get dice against infantry. It is an either or situation. It seems to me in this scenario that the analogous situation is more in line with impetus which is "either or" rather than "how many."

It seems to me the simplest solution is to calculate the VBU against the enemy main unit. Supports add after that (including stripping enemy impetus if appropriate). In practice that's how we do it on the table as a process.

It is not analogous with the impetus question because impetus is negated by things. Depth isn't. The rule says you get depth against infantry, it doesn't say depth is negated by mounted.

The pike get depth against infantry as that's the main unit - the enemy support don't add to the pike's dice, they add to their own main unit as support.
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Re: Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

Post by RogerC on Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:20 pm

I'm with Zippee on this one, but with slightly different reasoning.

As a first step, I agree with GC that the only sensible conclusion when a large unit of pike melee both foot and mounted is to use the depth bonus appropriate for the main units in the melee. It doesn't seem right that if infantry are the main unit, their position is made worse if they have cavalry support.

If the depth bonus in that situation is determined by the main units, then that should apply in other situations, absent a specific rule to the contrary. Since there isn't such a rule, the warband get their depth bonus if the main unit they are fighting is infantry, and don't if it is cavalry.

That avoids me having to distinguish between a factor being negated and a factor which doesn't apply.

RogerC

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Re: Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:39 pm

Upon reflection and good nights sleep I'm coming around to the point of view that the warband gains the depth bonus if the main unit is infantry.
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Re: Mounted and Foot combining v Warbands

Post by Zippee on Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:38 pm

RogerC wrote:I'm with Zippee on this one, but with slightly different reasoning.

As a first step, I agree with GC that the only sensible conclusion when a large unit of pike melee both foot and mounted is to use the depth bonus appropriate for the main units in the melee. It doesn't seem right that if infantry are the main unit, their position is made worse if they have cavalry support.

If the depth bonus in that situation is determined by the main units, then that should apply in other situations, absent a specific rule to the contrary. Since there isn't such a rule, the warband get their depth bonus if the main unit they are fighting is infantry, and don't if it is cavalry.

That avoids me having to distinguish between a factor being negated and a factor which doesn't apply.

RogerC

Laughing 
My question on pike was rhetorical - it was meant as the proof of the position outlined. It seems to have been taken as a genuine question.

You have to distinguish between a situation that is negated and a situation that doesn't apply. The first requires a force acting upon something [long spears against mounted]; the second is just an absence of a quality [not being foot].

However, as always, I hesitate to rely on such rules of English grammar in trying to understand a translated work. Hence the proof offered in terms of the pike. . .

Shocked
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