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Tang Chinese Lists

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Tang Chinese Lists

Post by jorneto on Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:02 pm

The early tang list covers the time of the fubing system and the mobile armies. It has good quality troops. The later tang list covers covers the much less successful second half of the dynasty. The troops are of lower quality and with less cavalry, much of it being from Turkish allies.

Code:
EARLY TANG CHINESE (618 AD-710 AD) - (VOLUME 22)
CS: Average (12 pts)

        NrType                             M VBU I D  VD  Pt Notes
        0-1 CP - Cataphract Lancer *        8  6 3 B  3   28 -
        Or  CP - Guard Cataphract Lancer *  8  7 3 B  3   35 -
        2-4 CM - Armoured Cavalry *        10  5 2 B  3   30 Comp. bow B
        Or  CM - Guard Armoured Cavalry *  10  6 2 A  3   37 Comp. bow C
        0-3 CM – Cavalry *                 10  5 3 B  3   24 -
        Or  CM - Guard Cavalry *           10  6 3 A  3   35 -
        2-4 CL - Horse Archers(incl.Guards)12  4 1 B  1   27 Comp. bow B
        1-4 FL – Swordsmen *                8  5 3 B  2/3 22 -
        Or  FL – Spearmen *                 8  5 2 B  2/3 24 Long spear
        0-1 FL - Guard Swordsmen *          8  6 3 A  3   33 -
        Or  FL - Guard Spearmen *           8  6 2 A  3   35 Long spear
        1-5 T  – Archers                    6  4 0 B  1   18 Comp. bow A
        0-1 T  - Guard Archer               6  4 0 A  2   23 Comp. bow A
        0-5 T  - Crossbowmen                6  4 0 B  1   21 Crossbow A
        0-1 T  - Guard Crossbowmen          6  4 0 A  2   26 Crossbow A
        0-4 T  - Armoured Archers           6  4 1 B  2   21 Comp. bow A
        0-5 S  - Light Archers              8  2 0 B  1   12 Comp. bow C
        Or  S  - Light Crossbowmen          8  2 0 B  1   12 Crossbow B
        0-4 S  - Skirmishers                8  2 0 B  1   12 Javelins
        0-3 CM - Turkish Cavalry           10  5 2 B  2   30 Comp. bow B
        0-4 CL - Turkish Light Cavalry     12  3 1 B  1   25 Comp. bow B
        -   Mount Infantry                               1 -

NOTES AND OPTIONS.
Guard cavalry (regardless of type) maximum of 2. Swordsmen and archers (and their guard equivalents) may form large units. Rear ranks shoot without -2 penalty. The compulsory minimums for infantry only apply if infantry are used.


Code:
LATE TANG CHINESE (710 AD-917 AD) - (VOLUME 22)
CS: Poor (0 pts) or Average (12 pts)

        Nr   Type                         M VBU I D VD   Pt Notes
        0-1  CM - Armoured Cavalry *      10  4 2 C  2/3 21 Comp. bow B
        Or   CM - Guard Armoured Cavalry *10  5 2 B  3   30 Comp. bow B
        1-2  CM – Cavalry *               10  4 3 C  2/3 15
        Or   CM - Guard Cavalry *         10  5 3 B  3   24
        0-2  CL - Horse Archers           12  3 1 B  1   25 Comp. bow B
        Or   CL - Guard Horse Archers     12  4 1 B  1   27 Comp. bow B
        2-8  FL – Swordsmen *              8  4 2 B  2/3 17
        Or   FL – Spearmen *               8  4 1 B  2/3 19 Long spear
        0-1  FL - Guard Swordsmen *        8  5 3 B  2/3 22
        Or   FL - Guard Spearmen *         8  5 2 B  2/3 24 Long spear
        0-8  T – Archers                   6  3 0 B  1   16 Comp. bow A
        0-1  T - Guard Archers             6  4 0 B  1   18 Comp. bow A
        0-6  T - Crossbowmen               6  3 0 B  1   19 Crossbow A
        0-1  T - Guard Crossbowmen         6  4 0 B  1   21 Crossbow A
        0-4  T - Armoured Archers          6  3 1 B  1   19 Comp. bow A
        0-5  S - Light Archers             8  2 0 B  1   12 Comp. bow C
        Or   S - Light Crossbowmen         8  2 0 B  1   12 Crossbow B
        0-4  S – Skirmishers               8  2 0 B  1   12 Javelins
        0-1  CM - Turkish Cavalry         10  5 2 B  2   30 Comp. bow B
        0-2  CL - Turkish Light Cavalry   12  3 1 B  1   25 Comp. bow B
        0-1  Turkish Ally
        0-3  CM - Turkish Cavalry         10  5 2 B  2   30 Comp. bow B
        0-5  CL - Turkish Light Cavalry   12  3 1 B  1   25 Comp. bow B
             Mount Infantry                               1

NOTES AND OPTIONS.
Guard cavalry (regardless of type) maximum of 1. Swordsmen and archers (and their guard equivalents) may form large units. Rear ranks shoot without -2 penalty. Mounted infantry maximum of ¼ deployed infantry.




Last edited by jorneto on Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:07 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:52 am

There is a Late Tang list on the Beta lists. Did you take a look at this list before proposing the above?

With respect to the Early Tang list I can't think of any VBU 6 cavalry that has Composite Bow B as the missile fire weapon. It is always Composite Bow C (even the Mongol CM is this way.) So  the Guard Armoured Cavalry needs modification.
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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by jorneto on Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:25 pm

Yes, I looked at the beta list. It is (in my opinion, of course) more suited to the early Tang period than to the late.

I did have some doubts between giving a B or C comp. bow. I see the C class as meaning "some men have bows" which is not the case. On the other hand as B class they are perhaps too strong. Anyway, keeping in line with the logic used in other lists, I’ll correct the entry.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Jim Webster on Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:15 pm

Basically Composite Bow C is given to troops to keep their missile fire down and to stop troops who are 'shock' troops from having overwhelming fire power.
It's more a rule artifact than a historical weapon

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:12 am

Jim Webster wrote:Basically Composite Bow C is given to troops to keep their missile fire down and to stop troops who are 'shock' troops from having overwhelming fire power.
It's more a rule artifact than a historical weapon

Jim

That's how I took it too. Composite Bow C goes to cavalry who's primary function is shock but who had the ability to provide significant missile fire when necessary. As I said above, I've never seen a cavalry unit in any list with a VBU of 6 which had bow capability rated as Composite Bow B.
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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Jim Webster on Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:21 am

You won't do, those cavalry would have such overwhelming missile fire that they would just blow everything away in front of them without ever needing to charge.

It's something Lorenzo has had to introduce into the rules to allow for the fact that there is only one VBU. If you had a missile factor and a melee factor you wouldn't need it. Personally I think it's a nice 'workaround' to simplify the rules Cool
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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:55 am

I find many of the cavalry missile troops well overpowered anyway.

Consider Comp Bow C VBU 6 troops vs the epitome of bow weaponry, the English 100 years war longbowmen (VBU 4).

Unless the weapon differential is at least 2 the English longbowman (ELB) is being outshot by a bloke in a saddle. So at long range the ELB is 1 dice better vs infantry, at short range it's evens and at point blank the ELB is 1 dice better vs cavalry.

The problem of course is that the cavalry can also charge the infantry and get a handful of dice in melee combat that the ELB cannot come close to emulating.

Formed foot missile troops are very hard done by in Impetus.




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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Jim Webster on Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:08 am

You forget the cavalryman's dilemma
If he stands to try and outshoot the infantry, he'll almost certainly lose his impetus because of his own casualties

Longbow men are 23 points a unit, mamluks with Comp bow C are 32

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by RogerC on Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:43 am

Thank you Jornato for looking at another Chinese list. Although I too like Chinese armies, I wonder if some of the units are just too strong.

In the Early Tang list, the Guard CL are 5/1 with Composite bow B. They will be devastating, and I can have 4 of them. The only other unit I know with those characteristics is a Mongol general's personal bodyguard. I think you may want to drop the VBU values of the two types of CL by 1.

The Guard Cataphracts are 7/3 A class and I'm sure you said that because they are Guard. It gives them unusual properties for CP (oblique movement, for example). Again, the only unit I know with those characteristics is Alexander the Great's personal bodyguard. Maybe take them down to B, with their Guard status being reflected by their higher VBU?

As things stand, did the Tang really have the best bow armed light cavalry and best heavy cavalry in history?

I note the Early Tang don't have any compulsory infantry, and neither list has any irregular (C class) infantry. That makes them an unusual Chinese army.

The other unusual feature is the high number of S units. Chinese armies (and indeed Asian armies in general) otherwise seem to have few skirmishers in the Impetus lists.

Did the Tang have armies wholly of cavalry? Did they have more trained skirmishers (as distinct from light infantry) than other Chinese armies? I don't know enough to say; again I'm just comparing these lists with other Impetus lists.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:18 pm

Jim Webster wrote:You forget the cavalryman's dilemma
If he stands to try and outshoot the infantry, he'll almost certainly lose his impetus because of his own casualties

Longbow men are 23 points a unit, mamluks with Comp bow C are 32

Jim

He can screen with CL easily enough then pay a 10BU move or two penalty and STILL get all his dice in melee. If he stands and they trade fire then the VBU4 ELB will most likely die well before the VBU6 Cav given the additional benefit of 2 on the critical number for cohesion tests.

Not bad for a 9 point cost.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Jim Webster on Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:45 pm

So it's not just 32 points, he's got to screen them with a 23 (?) point CL unit as well to get them in.
So that's 55 points facing 23

What are the other 23 points of the English army doing at this time when nobody's watching them?

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by jorneto on Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:04 pm

RogerC wrote:
In the Early Tang list, the Guard CL are 5/1 with Composite bow B. They will be devastating, and I can have 4 of them.
Ok. Changed to VBU 4. Let them be content with the title! Note however that there is a limit of 2 units for fielded guard cavalry.
RogerC wrote:The Guard Cataphracts are 7/3 A class and I'm sure you said that because they are Guard. It gives them unusual properties for CP (oblique movement, for example). Again, the only unit I know with those characteristics is Alexander the Great's personal bodyguard. Maybe take them down to B, with their Guard status being reflected by their higher VBU?
Didn’t know that. Took me some time to find that rule in the V1.5. Changed to “B”.
RogerC wrote:I note the Early Tang don't have any compulsory infantry, and neither list has any irregular (C class) infantry. That makes them an unusual Chinese army.

The other unusual feature is the high number of S units. Chinese armies (and indeed Asian armies in general) otherwise seem to have few skirmishers in the Impetus lists.
All cavalry expeditions weren’t unusual. But it’s not a bad ideia to have an infantry minimum “if any foot is used” clause - changed. I only know of a common presence of auxiliary cavalry, but not infantry.
They did have an high proportion of skirmishers.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by RogerC on Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:32 pm

Thank you Jorneto.

Because there were CM cavalry called 'Guard Cavalry', I thought your limitation of 2 units applied only to them. However, I think you are saying that I can only have 2 in total of the cavalry units with the designation Guard. Is that right? So no more than 2 Guard CP, CM and CL altogether. That is better I think. I'd still make the changes I suggested and you've now made, but at least I can't have a wholly Guard army.

I'm interested in the thought that I could have an army that is entirely cavalry. Not that I've (yet) got enough Chinese cavalry units for that.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:13 pm

Jim Webster wrote:So it's not just 32 points, he's got to screen them with a 23 (?) point CL unit as well to get them in.
So that's 55 points facing 23

What are the other 23 points of the English army doing at this time when nobody's watching them?

Jim

That's just an option.

The direct comparison of VBU6 cavalry with Comp Bow C vs ELB with Longbow A still applies.

The Cav *MIGHT* lose their Impetus, given they can fire and double move 20BU in a turn they have a pretty big cruising range to fire and hit. But the ELB start with 0 Impetus so they can only initiate melee under very specific, limited circumstances.

And they still don't get a major advantage in the missile fire exchange which was the basic point I was making.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:02 am

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:I find many of the cavalry missile troops well overpowered anyway.

Consider Comp Bow C VBU 6 troops vs the epitome of bow weaponry, the English 100 years war longbowmen (VBU 4).

Unless the weapon differential is at least 2 the English longbowman (ELB) is being outshot by a bloke in a saddle.  So at long range the ELB is 1 dice better vs infantry, at short range it's evens and at point blank the ELB is 1 dice better vs cavalry.

The problem of course is that the cavalry can also charge the infantry and get a handful of dice in melee combat that the ELB cannot come close to emulating.

Formed foot missile troops are very hard done by in Impetus.


Your analysis GG is mixing apples and oranges. In a straight fight between ELB and CM 6 Comp C cavalry here are the stats.

ELB CM
LR 5 2 +3 ELB
SR 6 4 +2 ELB
PB 9 7 +2 ELB

The CM does have the capacity to evade (by passing a DT) and is also rolling a higher VBU so is more likely to survive missile fire hits but on the downside this cavalry is always VD 3 as against the VD for the ELB and is 30% more expensive. Additionally, the matchup between ELB and CL 4 Composite Bow B is not overall a good matchup for the CL. The main strength of Longbow A is that it can dominate the table up to 30U in a way that no other missile fire system can. Advancing cavalry against it is very challenging.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:48 am

That is true as far as it goes.

But, as I started with, go back and compare the straight out missile fire.

When shooting at the same target at the same range what does the outcome look like?

The guys sitting in saddles are too damn powerful or the dedicated longbow archer is well and truly underpowered.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:54 am

I tend to agree with you GG that composite bow C is a great value for 3 points especially when it is combined with high VBU cavalry. I think the numbers should be reduced slightly in any revision of the charts.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by RogerC on Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:24 pm

I've been thinking about the lists again, and you might want to have a look at the numbers of FL, Jorneto.

In the early Tang list, I can only have a maximum of 5 FL, including Guards. On the other hand I can have up to 15 T. That seems a big imbalance compared to other Chinese lists. Did the Tang have so few attacking infantry?

Even in the Late Tang list, there are 9 FL and 20 T.

I'd certainly increase the FL available for Early Tang, maybe to the same level as late Tang. For Late Tang, how about saying that up to 4 of the archers can be upgraded to armoured, for an extra 3 points, rather than having them as in addition to normal archers?

By the way, can I form large units of Guard swordsmen and Guard archers? I don't know enough about Tang guard to say, but presumably the tactics of the Guard weren't any different from ordinary troops.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by jorneto on Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:10 pm

I improved (I hope) the wording of the notes.

The swordsmen and spearmen were proportionally few. They were probably the more common troop type assigned to the reserves (tiaodang). Add to that some archers that were also equipped with melee weapons, hence the ones with impact 1.

Both lists were designed around the 1000pts mark, but they are different. The first has good quality troops and an higher cavalry proportion. The other is a cheaper and more numerous list with an higher infantry component.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by RogerC on Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:48 pm

Thanks for the explanation, Jorneto. Because I usually have 300/350 point armies, my choices are more affected by what is compulsory, and what is not, than larger armies.

I can see the difference between the two armies, I was just concerned that the Early Tang, with its large number of T and few FL, made for a defensive army. If you think the dominance of T reflects the period, then that's fine.

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Re: Tang Chinese Lists

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:53 am

I encourage the developof this list, so keep going on.

On the CM VS T, a CM with VBU 6 and Comp bow C rolls on long distance 2 dice in a duel with a T VBU=4 Longbow. The latter rolls 5 dice. When on short, the CM rolls 4 dice and the T 6 dice. Of course CM can be screened but T can be supported by a CP or a FP in opportunity.
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