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Multiple melee

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Multiple melee

Post by accard on Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:40 pm

Hi, just wanted to check on something which came up in a game last night.

Two units from different commands were fighting an enemy unit.

If the unit which is supporting in the melee is in a command which is activated first, does that mean the melee is fought when the supporting unit is activated? And is the melee then fought again when the main units command is activated? Or does the earlier activation cancel that?

regards Andrew

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by RogerC on Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:15 pm

I'm not sure I can give you a definitive answer.

In this thread
http://impetus.ativiforum.com/t100-multiple-melee
Gaius Cassius and I discussed this question. We came to different views, even though we could each see the other's viewpoint. Lorenzo didn't resolve the discussion.

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by accard on Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:41 pm

Ah, thanks for the referral!

We were getting drawn combats all night with units just sitting there - this was one of many. We played the multiple combats a turn interpretation - but weren't sure it was right.

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Zippee on Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:37 pm

If a unit is in contact and activated then that combat is fought then and there, including activating other units not of the same command.

The main unit is the one with most frontal contact, regardless of which unit activated the combat.

The combat is then done - only if new units contact (7.7.4) does it get restarted.

If restarted then "units that were activated beforehand as well as units from other commands may fight" (7.7.4) [personally I think this is a translation issue - I read it as "including units from other commands"]

So in your example the support unit activates the combat, activating the friendly main unit. When the main unit activates it does nothing as the combat has already been fought. However if a different unit joined the combat it would activate both the main and support units already activated.

Note that this is substantively different from 7.7.3 (5) which refers to fighting in more than one combat. You don't have more than one combat, you have a single combat involving units from different commands.
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by RogerC on Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:49 pm

I agree that is one possible interpretation, Zippee. However, it creates the need to say that activation of one command can 'use up' the activation of a unit in another command. I cannot think of another situation when that can happen.

As I discussed in the earlier thread, I prefer a different interpretation of rule 7.7.4, which talks about a restart of the melee automatically activating units 'belonging to the same command' that are involved in the melee. You wouldn't need 'belonging to the same command' if any unit involved was automatically activated. So I think a unit in a different command can 'restart' the melee when its activation comes round, even if it has already fought when a unit of a different command was activated.

As has been said before, we have to be wary of over-analysing the grammar of the rules, as they are a translation. In the absence of anything from Lorenzo, we'll just have to differ.

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Zippee on Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:35 pm

There are three relevant statements in 7.7.4:

A) "A multiple melee can start again when a new unit contacts an engaged unit"

B) "The unit that restarts the melee automatically activates friendly units belonging to the same command that are involved in the melee and that have not yet been activated that turn"

C) "Units from the command that were activated beforehand as well as units from other commands may fight in the melee that ensues"

They affect the interpretation thusly:

A) Contradicts your conclusion - the only way a melee can "restart" is when a new unit contacts it. Whether a unit from a different command fought in the combat or not is irrelevant, whether it is still engaged is: such a unit is activated when its command is but even then it cannot restart the melee, so its activation is void.

B) Merely states that units within the same command do not activate again after the conclusion of the melee. Important because after the melee these units may not be engaged and thus look eligible for activation. Conversely units from other commands that fought but have not been activated can be activated (although if still engaged this is moot)

C) Confirms that engaged units already activated or forming part of a different command fight.

Note that B) and C) refer to separate things, B) is about activation, C) about fighting.

Nowhere in my reply above did I say that a unit in a different command could not restart the melee - but the only way it can do this is by contacting an engaged unit. If it is already engaged it can't do this and thus the melee cannot restart. If it fought but is no longer engaged then the combat has ended and cannot be restarted - the unit activates as normal.

I believe you are conflating B) and C)

RogerC wrote: You wouldn't need 'belonging to the same command' if any unit involved was automatically activated. So I think a unit in a different command can 'restart' the melee when its activation comes round, even if it has already fought when a unit of a different command was activated.

"Any unit involved" is not activated - any unit involved can fight. However a unit in a separate command cannot restart the melee just by being activated - it needs to contact an engaged unit. It cannot do that if it remains engaged.

If it fought and is no longer engaged, then it cannot possibly restart the same combat - it may contact the same enemy unit but it is a separate combat not the same one restarted.

As I said above 7.7.4 is about the same continuous combat, not multiple combats (not even multiple combats involving the self same units).
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by accard on Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:27 am

So does this mean that (if it is a drawn melee with no new units entering it) then even when the enemy unit activates it won't be fought again that turn as "no new units have entered the melee? ie a drawn melee is only fought once per turn?

Or is it always fought twice per turn - once when one friendly command activates, and then again on an enemy activation?

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:52 am

As you have said a drawn melee is fought when either unit is activated or another unit activates the melee.

So in a full turn where all commands have been activated a repeatedly drawn melee will be fought twice as a minimum, once for each unit in the melee plus potential additional activations for other units entering melee (assuming they enter after the original stick was revisited) or if there are same player units from 2 different commands already in melee in which case the melee activates each time one of those commands is activated.

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Zippee on Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:13 am

accard wrote:So does this mean that (if it is a drawn melee with no new units entering it) then even when the enemy unit activates it won't be fought again that turn as "no new units have entered the melee? ie a drawn melee is only fought once per turn?

Or is it always fought twice per turn - once when one friendly command activates, and then again on an enemy activation?

The latter. Plus again when/if any new unit enters the combat.

You can think of it as the melee being fought when each main unit activates plus when any new unit engages. However that's slightly oversimplistic because the main unit can be activated by the activation of a support or the arrival of a new unit Very Happy

So if a new unit activates the combat before you activate the engaged unit you only fight once (plus enemy turn). Do it the other way around and you get to fight twice. Another of those things to consider when selecting command/unit activation sequence
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by RogerC on Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:06 pm

I don't think there is a contradiction in my argument. The arrival of a new unit isn't the only way a multiple melee can start again. It starts again when an enemy unit already in the melee is activated, and can start again next turn whenever any unit in the melee is activated. So the 'new unit' arrival isn't the only way a multiple melee restarts.

So, the question remains; can a unit already engaged in a melee restart the melee, if it is part of a command which has not previously been activated that turn, and for which no unit of the same command has fought in the melee?

Zippee, you say that when a unit which already fought due to activation of a unit from another command, is activated, it cannot restart the melee so its activation is void. Is there some rule that gives that interpretation? I don't think rule 7.7.4 does, because it says a unit that restarts the melee activates friendly units in the same command. It doesn't say anything about units in other commands. I can't see anything that excludes 'full' activation of the unit. For example I don't see why it can't attempt to disengage (the only movement allowed for a unit in melee), if the conditions are right.

I can see your view, but I still prefer mine. I think GG agreed with me, earlier in this thread. As I said, I think we need guidance from Lorenzo.

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Zippee on Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:58 pm

RogerC wrote:I don't think there is a contradiction in my argument. The arrival of a new unit isn't the only way a multiple melee can start again. It starts again when an enemy unit already in the melee is activated, and can start again next turn whenever any unit in the melee is activated. So the 'new unit' arrival isn't the only way a multiple melee restarts.

Sorry that is just wrong! The arrival of a new unit is the only way a combat can "restart". Your use of "starts again" is spurious I'm afraid. Activation of the friendly and enemy principle units is not "restarting" it's just normal procedure, that is how all combats are fought.

Why would you think a combat should be recalculated just because a unit in a different command is involved? What possible sense of decision node or change of circumstance can that represent? The combat is fought, once by friend, once by foe, and again if there's a new input. Why would a unit get a "free activation" just because it belongs to a separate command?

7.7.4 does not say "a combat restarts when a new unit joins it or when a unit from a different command is activated, even if that unit has already fought in the combat". And that is what you want it to say - show me where that is stated, not inferences and hints by reading between lines.


RogerC wrote:So, the question remains; can a unit already engaged in a melee restart the melee, if it is part of a command which has not previously been activated that turn, and for which no unit of the same command has fought in the melee?

No it can't as 7.7.4 plainly states - the only way you can "restart" a melee is by moving a new unit into it.

RogerC wrote:Zippee, you say that when a unit which already fought due to activation of a unit from another command, is activated, it cannot restart the melee so its activation is void. Is there some rule that gives that interpretation? I don't think rule 7.7.4 does, because it says a unit that restarts the melee activates friendly units in the same command. It doesn't say anything about units in other commands. I can't see anything that excludes 'full' activation of the unit. For example I don't see why it can't attempt to disengage (the only movement allowed for a unit in melee), if the conditions are right.RogerC

You are refusing to accept what 7.7.4 states very simply - the only way a combat can restart is by moving a new unit into it. Therefore activating a unit from whatever command that is already engaged in, and thus already fought in, that combat cannot in any way restart the combat. It doesn't have to make the distinction between commands - the distinction is "is it a new unit or not?"

Disengagement is an interesting point but there's nothing in 5.11.3 that indicates you can activate units that have already fought and used their activation. I can understand the argument that claims you should be able to do this. However the fact that the ability to do this is not hinted at suggests to me that it is not possible to do it when the unit has already had an early out of sequence activation. It always has the option to disengage but it has to make the attempt when activated - which is when the combat is fought.
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by RogerC on Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:06 pm

I think we have reached the point where we are just arguing past each other, Zippee. It can happen with forum/email discussions.

You believe you can see flaws in my argument; I believe I can see flaws in yours. Neither of us is persuading the other, and probably everyone else just wants to keep away.

I'll just have to settle for disagreement, unless Lorenzo resolves this. As I said in my first post, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer that all agree to.

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:54 am

RogerC wrote:I don't think there is a contradiction in my argument. The arrival of a new unit isn't the only way a multiple melee can start again. It starts again when an enemy unit already in the melee is activated, and can start again next turn whenever any unit in the melee is activated. So the 'new unit' arrival isn't the only way a multiple melee restarts.

So, the question remains; can a unit already engaged in a melee restart the melee, if it is part of a command which has not previously been activated that turn, and for which no unit of the same command has fought in the melee?

Absolutely Yes is the answer.

Refer 7.7.4 and also EI1 page 27 Example 3


Last edited by Granicus Gaugamela on Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:56 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Zippee on Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:19 am

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:

Absolutely Yes is the answer.

Refer 7.7.4 and also EI1 page 27 Example 3

That merely says the unit in the second command can be activated - of course it can, I'm not suggesting it can't.

If the melee was decided by the first command's activation and the second command unit is no longer engaged then it activates and off it goes.

However it does not answer the question at hand. IMO if it is still engaged in the same combat it's activation is moot because it can't restart that melee. I base that on the fact that 7.7.4 only gives one situation where a melee can be restarted. Can such a unit disengage under that circumstance? The rules are silent, not at all sure which side of the coin that assists  Very Happy

In essence:
Can units contribute to a melee several times in a single turn - yes absolutely so.
Can units "activate" several times in a single turn - no absolutely not.

And I see a very significant difference between those two states.

What a unit can do when activated is a supplementary question, and at the heart of this discussion.

If engaged in a combat when activated your options are limited:
disengage or fight the melee
If the melee has already been fought, you can't restart it (without a rule amendment) so I think your options are limited to disengagement (maybe) or nothing. I prefer nothing because I think it is artificial that the unit gets a second chance to consider disengagement - but maybe the delayed commander should get that [the benefit of dithering  Shocked  ]

Should this change?
I am in two minds:
1) no because I do not see what the decision node is that would be being replicated
2) yes because it would require less situational memory of a previous command's activations
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by warchariot on Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:42 pm

Zippee wrote:Can units "activate" several times in a single turn - no absolutely not

To me, this is the entire reason Zippee is correct. You can't activate a unit twice voluntarily in any other circumstance, why should you be able to do it in melee?
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:54 pm

warchariot wrote:
Zippee wrote:Can units "activate" several times in a single turn - no absolutely not

To me, this is the entire reason Zippee is correct. You can't activate a unit twice voluntarily in any other circumstance, why should you be able to do it in melee?

Because Zippee is incorrect, the example in EI1 states explicitly "..but this time A and C are in different commands. 'A' will ALSO (my caps) fight during the activation of 'C's command. 'A' can be activated again afterwards when initiative goes to his command".

So it is written absolutely explicitly that the melee (assuming it remains drawn) is reactivated during each and every Command activation if that Command has a unit involved in the melee and that all units from all commands participate even if they have already activated that turn.

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Zippee on Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:11 pm

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:
warchariot wrote:
Zippee wrote:Can units "activate" several times in a single turn - no absolutely not

To me, this is the entire reason Zippee is correct. You can't activate a unit twice voluntarily in any other circumstance, why should you be able to do it in melee?

Because Zippee is incorrect, the example in EI1 states explicitly "..but this time A and C are in different commands. 'A' will ALSO (my caps) fight during the activation of 'C's command.  'A' can be activated again afterwards when initiative goes to his command".

So it is written absolutely explicitly that the melee (assuming it remains drawn) is reactivated during each and every Command activation if that Command has a unit involved in the melee and that all units from all commands participate even if they have already activated that turn.

No that is precisely what it is not saying GC, the melee is not restarted.

I repeat yes the unit can be activated (it hasn't had an activation because it's in a command other than the current one, it has only contributed to a combat).

When it activates in its commands phase, what it can do depends on whether it is still engaged or not. if it is it can't do anything because it cannot restart the combat. the rules are absolutely clear on that,

Fighting is not synonymous with activation!
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by RogerC on Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:50 pm

OK, I'll have one more try at explaining the alternative interpretation.

You rely on the first sentence of rule 7.7.4 to say that the unit can't restart the melee when it is activated. Isn't that implicitly introducing the word 'only' into the sentence? If I say that 'On Thursday I play Impetus', that tells you nothing about whether I play Impetus on Saturday, or even play other things beside Impetus on Thursdays. So I don't see that sentence prohibiting a unit being activated from restarting the melee. It does not say anything about that situation. I can see that you think it does. That's where we are disagreeing.

We agree now, I think, that a unit which has fought a melee because of activations of units in other commands will activate when its command is activated. GG gave the reference in EI1. In principle, a unit which is activated can do any of the usual actions of Rule 4.4.1 unless there is a specific rule changing that. For movement, when a unit is in contact with an enemy unit, there is such a specific rule - 5.11.3 which limits such movement to disengagement and only under appropriate circumstances. Similarly, Rule 6.3.4 effectively stops a unit in a melee firing, because its only possible target will also be in melee. But I can find nothing which excludes melee activation. As I said, I don't see the first sentence of 7.7.4 doing that.

I also note that the same argument would apply to a unit in the same command as one which had previously triggered the melee, if it were not for the third sentence of 7.7.4, which excludes that. Again, that third sentence says nothing about units in other commands.

I'm not expecting to change your mind, Zippee, but maybe you can see that another interpretation is possible. GG and I are just trying to understand the rules as written, as are you.

RogerC




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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Zippee on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:37 pm

RogerC wrote:You rely on the first sentence of rule 7.7.4 to say that the unit can't restart the melee when it is activated. Isn't that implicitly introducing the word 'only' into the sentence? If I say that 'On Thursday I play Impetus', that tells you nothing about whether I play Impetus on Saturday, or even play other things beside Impetus on Thursdays.  So I don't see that sentence prohibiting a unit being activated from restarting the melee. It does not say anything about that situation. I can see that you think it does. That's where we are disagreeing.

Indeed 7.7.4 doesn't say lots of things. What it doesn't say isn't the point. It's what it does say that counts. And all it says is that a new unit restarts a melee - that's all you've got.

If I ask "What days do you play Impetus on?" and you reply "I play Impetus on Thursday". It is safe to surmise that you did not also mean you played on Saturday.

Section 7.7.4 is about multiple melee in more than one phase and opens by telling us when a melee can restart and it only gives one criteria. If you were writing a section on when melees could legitimately restart, would you not include all instances. Why would you omit one? If one is omitted why not others. maybe elephants always restart melee when in contact every Tuesday at 3pm - the rules don't say that's not the case either!

Indeed we are trying to understand the rules as written. Unfortunately as far as I can see you and GC are understanding them by adding statements that are not there - that's not "as written".

We never disagreed on the activation of a different command's unit - only on whether it could restart the same combat.

RogerC wrote:if it were not for the third sentence of 7.7.4, which excludes that. Again, that third sentence says nothing about units in other commands.

? The third sentence states "So therefore the unit that restarts the melee will not necessarily fight as the Main Unit". I presume you mean the next. . . that sentence confirms that the units of the same command are considered to have been activated by the combat. You don't get to activate them next and move them even if the combat is resolved successfully. The second para then confirms that units of other commands [and those previously activated] may also fight but by omission are not counted as activated. And as such may move and do other stuff when their command is activated. That is the distinction, not restarting melee.

To be clear 7.7.4 makes a distinction between
a) other command units that can fight now and later be activated in their own phase
b) other units of this command that can fight now but count it as their activation.

Nowhere is it stating that because they get their activation later they also count as restarting the melee - 7.7.4 has already laid out how that happens, this isn't that.

We always agreed other units get to activate later. It's what they can do with that activation that matters. The 3rd / 4th sentence in 7.7.4 isn't relevant to that question.

And of course you won't find a rule that prevents a unit on contact from fighting - that's what units in contact do. Except that having fought inconclusively, out of sequence, a unit that is later activated cannot restart the melee. If you want it to fight again, activate another unit and shove it into the combat - then it will fight (and coincidentally be confirmed as having had its activation as above), otherwise it's done its bit for this turn.
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:59 pm

Zippee,

you can fight as many times in melee as you like.

If one were to take your "one activation and one activation only" then what happens if you are attacked twice? Do you fight twice then?

Of course you do.

Equally as 7.6.2 points out, in the event of a draw you remain in contact until the next melee phase. And as the example in EI1 uses the word ALSO you reactivate the engaged units then, no matter that they have been previously activated. If you can follow up for potentially half a dozen melees there is no reason you can't fight when a different Command activation triggers.

Read through the Examples in EI1.

Unit A fights during the activation of Cs command.

"A can be activated again when initiative goes to his Command."

Any interpretation that A cannot/will not fight again is plainly ridiculous.

If A and C win the combat during C's activation are you trying to claim that A cannot engage a new melee opponent at all? And if that is not your interpretation why is it that A does not fight the melee upon activation?

And if you want to try and apply black letter interpretation of the rules then 4.1.1 includes "fight in a melee" as part of a unit's activation and makes no reference to not being able to fight. Unless you can find a Rule that overrides 4.1.1 your attempts to claim that unless there is a written rule allowing it falter right there - there is a rule that states, without reservation, that a unit may fight a melee as part of its activation

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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Zippee on Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:39 am

GC
Yes you can fight in multiple melees. No one has said you can’t

Granicus Gaugamela wrote: If one were to take your "one activation and one activation only" then what happens if you are attacked twice? Do you fight twice then?
Fighting is not synonymous with activation – when you fight in an enemy turn you are not “activating” your unit.

Granicus Gaugamela wrote: Equally as 7.6.2 points out, in the event of a draw you remain in contact until the next melee phase. And as the example in EI1 uses the word ALSO you reactivate the engaged units then, no matter that they have been previously activated. If you can follow up for potentially half a dozen melees there is no reason you can't fight when a different Command activation triggers.
EG1 is about units in same command – it confirms you cannot reactivate the second unit
EG2 same but units activate other way around, neither is relevant to the discussion.
EG3 confirms that A fights out of sequence in C’s activation. It also confirms A can later activate under its own command. That’s all it says

Granicus Gaugamela wrote: Any interpretation that A cannot/will not fight again is plainly ridiculous.

You'll note that that is not the claim being made, A can do many things including fighting. What it can't do is restart a melee.

If the melee is resolved it can do what it likes but if it is engaged in an already fought melee it has no ability to restart that melee.

Granicus Gaugamela wrote: If A and C win the combat during C's activation are you trying to claim that A cannot engage a new melee opponent at all? And if that is not your interpretation why is it that A does not fight the melee upon activation?
Don’t be ridiculous, I have said on many occasions that A can do whatever it likes on its activation except restart a melee. If it can move and attack it’s free to do so. A new melee is a new melee not a restarted one.

Granicus Gaugamela wrote: And if you want to try and apply black letter interpretation of the rules then 4.1.1 includes "fight in a melee" as part of a unit's activation and makes no reference to not being able to fight. Unless you can find a Rule that overrides 4.1.1 your attempts to claim that unless there is a written rule allowing it falter right there - there is a rule that states, without reservation, that a unit may fight a melee as part of its activation
Really you want to reduce it to the absurd? OK, 7.1 states “a melee occurs when two or more units come into contact” and “melee occurs immediately after contact” so if the unit didn’t move into contact it’s not a melee. QED.
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:21 pm

I probably missed the details of the whole discussion, but a Unit that is in contact with an opponent from a previous melee (it was a draw so units are still in touch) can have a melee once it is activated.

I mean A charges B, during A activation. The melee ended in a draw. Now it is B time for activation. As already in contact, B MUST have a melee with A (unless it can disengage).
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Zippee on Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:30 pm

Fair enough, that's settled then
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:58 pm

Actually I don't think Lorenzo answered the question under discussion. Personally, I am with Zippee on this and this is how we play Impetus. If Side A has two friendly units from different commands melee against a common enemy on Side B that melee cannot be reactivated in the turn by Side A unless a new unit moves into the melee. Beyond the rules itself the logic is simple. Side A should not be able to have more melees with two units from different commands than two units from the same command. So in Impetus unless there is something new added to a melee each side gets to activate it once.
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Re: Multiple melee

Post by dadiepiombo on Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:26 pm

If side A has 2 different Commands involved in the same melee, both Commands will be activated (with 2 different timing, of course).

Example: we have A1 (first command) and A2 (second command) against B1.
Let's suppose that B charged and the melee ended in a draw.
Player A now activates his Command 1 and A1 must take its round of melee. A1 can be the main unit or a support unit. In both cases A2 will be involved in the melee (as a supporting unit or as a main unit).

Draw or not, A2 will be activated when Command 2 will be activated. If still in contact, A2 will have its melee and will be helped by A1.

This has been cleared in Extra Impetus 1, page 27, example 3.
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Re: Multiple melee

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