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facing pikes

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facing pikes

Post by Jim Webster on Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:40 am

Something that cropped up last night

(I've drawn a picture but cannot work out how to upload it from my computer desktop!)



Anyway you have a big unit of pikes and next to them on their right a unit of crossbowmen.

Two cavalry units charge in.
The first hits only the pikes. This one is simple, just fights pikes, loses Impetus etc.

The second hits the pikes but mainly hits the crossbowmen.

From comments made elsewhere I was pretty sure it counted as facing pikes.

What we finally agreed was because the pikes and the first cavalry had been main units in their own melee, they couldn't give support in the melee between the second cavalry and the crossbowmen.
Were we right

Jim
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Re: facing pikes

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:46 pm

Couplwe of things.

1) Extra Impetus 4 p 44: "A unit that negates the Impetus bonus does so even if in melee as a supporting unit"

So if the pike are a supporting unit then the Cav lose Impetus.

With regard to the multiple melee this is a discussion Lorenzo has ruled on elsewhere - as soon as the cav v pike melee is resolved (and it appears the cav retreated) then all the units left in contact (the second cav unit vs the crossbow as main and also contacting the pike) recalculate the melee dice from scratch and the pike DO count as a supporting unit.

As such the cav lose their Impetus in accordance with the first part of this response and the pike are a supporting unit to them.

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Re: facing pikes

Post by RogerC on Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:29 pm

Agreed GG. There is nothing preventing a unit which has been the main unit in a melee then being a supporting unit (or even a main unit) later in the turn.

If the cavalry charged as a group, the attacker could choose the order in which the melees are resolved. He could choose to resolve the cavalry v crossbowmen melee first. Then, since the melee of cavalry and pikes has not yet happened, the pikes aren't a support unit (they are the main unit in the unresolved melee) so the cavalry get their impetus against the crossbowmen. Depending on the outcome, the cavalry which fought the crossbowmen may then be a support unit in the melee between the other cavalry and the pikes. Neither cavalry will get impetus in that melee. So quite different, depending on the order of melee resolution.

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Re: facing pikes

Post by Jim Webster on Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:55 pm

Thanks for the bit about pikes

Now the cavalry hit and stuck. So they were still in contact with the pikes, then the second cavalry hit both cavalry and crossbows.
They couldn't charge as a group
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Re: facing pikes

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:18 am

OK, so the first melee is a stick. I'm assuming they were heavy cavalry otherwise they would have to autoretreat from a battle with FP only.

Then the second cavalry jumped in and contacted the crossbow primarily so the crossbow were the main unit with an overlap onto the pike.

Just checking I have understood you.

That being the case then logically you have the original melee in stick mode counting as main units facing each other and then then new melee units are assessed as main units facing each other so if I've understood you then yes you've done it in accordance with the melee rules.

If the crossbow retreated and left the 2nd cavalry supporting the first cavalry against the pike I'm not sure whether or not that would restart the original melee or not given they would then have entered that melee. Will have to check the books when I get home.

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Re: facing pikes

Post by RogerC on Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:18 pm

Yes, if the initial melee between the pikes and the cavalry is stuck, then the pikes are still the main unit in that melee and can't be a support unit in the melee between the other cavalry and the crossbowmen.

I was wrong when I said earlier that there isn't anything to stop a unit which has been a main unit being a support unit in a later melee; it can't be a support unit if it is still the main unit in an unfinished melee (whether stuck or not yet resolved).

If the pikes can't be a support unit in the melee of cavalry and crossbowmen, the cavalry still seem to get their impetus even if they are in contact with the pikes (the pikes aren't a support unit so the cavalry in contact with the crossbowmen aren't in melee with the pikes).

Good question whether a melee restarts after a zero distance pursuit by the cavalry which has fought the crossbowmen. I'd say yes but I know there are other views.

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Re: facing pikes

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:30 pm

There has to be movement for pursuit to occur. If there is no movement there is no pursuit. The only exception to this rule is when a unit is attacked upon the flank and retreats leaving it still in contact with the enemy. In this case pursuit occurs even though technically there is no movement.
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Re: facing pikes

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:47 am

Gaius Cassius wrote:There has to be movement for pursuit to occur. If there is no movement there is no pursuit. The only exception to this rule is when a unit is attacked upon the flank and retreats leaving it still in contact with the enemy. In this case pursuit occurs even though technically there is no movement.

Yep, but we're not talking pursuit here, this is potentially different as the cav are released from their main combat and then are engaged in the other melee as a support unit.

Does this then restart that melee or not? Can't say I've ever faced this situation, not sure how it should be resolved. If the cav enter the melee (which given they are in contact they must) then it would seem to conform with the exact wording of the rule that a new unit has entered melee.

But I'm not sure if that is either logical or desirable.

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Re: facing pikes

Post by Zippee on Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:17 am

Granicus Gaugamela wrote: If the cav enter the melee (which given they are in contact they must) then it would seem to conform with the exact wording of the rule that a new unit has entered melee.

But I'm not sure if that is either logical or desirable.

My reading of the rule is that "enter melee" is "to move into contact [and thus melee]" certainly to me it implies a conscious act by the unit.

Having fought and then finding themselves eligible to be a support unit, shouldn't to my mind restart the supported melee.

Having fought and then finding themselves eligible to be a main unit in a different melee, might be a valid reason. But then you can't be a main unit twice in the same turn and I can't envision how that would come about as the enemy units should break contact.

[Desperately trying not to re-open 'that' discussion  ]
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Re: facing pikes

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:01 pm

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:Yep, but we're not talking pursuit here, this is potentially different as the cav are released from their main combat and then are engaged in the other melee as a support unit.

Does this then restart that melee or not?  Can't say I've ever faced this situation, not sure how it should be resolved.  If the cav enter the melee (which given they are in contact they must) then it would seem to conform with the exact wording of the rule that a new unit has entered melee.

But I'm not sure if that is either logical or desirable.

The scenario that you describe GG could only occur if there is pursuit. Otherwise, a unit is finished once it has meleed. So in simple terms only main units can activate melee unless a new unit moves into the melee. That main unit could provide support in another melee but the activation of that melee is done by the main unit.
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Re: facing pikes

Post by dadiepiombo on Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:44 pm

I got lost through the topic but if I have understood correctly it is as GC says.
If you are already in contact you can start a new melee only if you have not yet acted that turn. If you have done it, unless there is not a pursuit that produces a new contact, that Unit cannot take any further actions/combat after the first melee.
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Re: facing pikes

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:15 pm

Gaius Cassius wrote:
Granicus Gaugamela wrote:Yep, but we're not talking pursuit here, this is potentially different as the cav are released from their main combat and then are engaged in the other melee as a support unit.

Does this then restart that melee or not?  Can't say I've ever faced this situation, not sure how it should be resolved.  If the cav enter the melee (which given they are in contact they must) then it would seem to conform with the exact wording of the rule that a new unit has entered melee.

But I'm not sure if that is either logical or desirable.

The scenario that you describe GG could only occur if there is pursuit. Otherwise, a unit is finished once it has meleed. So in simple terms only main units can activate melee unless a new unit moves into the melee. That main unit could provide support in another melee but the activation of that melee is done by the main unit.

I used to think so but this situation is a little different. Cav 1 moves up to fight pike in line with crossbow and sticks

Cav 2 moves up and contacts both pike and crossbow with crossbow as the main.

Therefore as pike are main in another stuck melee they cannot provide support to the crossbow even though they are in contact.

Cav 2 fight the Crossbow and win, the crossbow retreat and now Cav 2 are in melee with the Pike even though they haven't pursued.

Very interesting question, not a situation I have encountered before.

Equally Lorenzo's response clears it up, if you are already in contact then no activation if you have fought that turn.

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Re: facing pikes

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:01 pm

GG the above scenario occurs all the time in Impetus. I suspect that you've simply handled it in a certain way and now that it has been brought to your attention it has sparked some thinking about it. I find this sometimes happens to me in the rules (most recently reflecting on overhead fire.)
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Re: facing pikes

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:03 pm

I need a diagram to be more precise, but form he last example
1) Cavalry must retreat if the melee with foot ends in a draw. But just imagine it is not Cavalry but Elephants

2) When you have a multiple melee you have to see which is the main unit and which is the supporting.
Now I figure the pikes are the main. We have a melee and it ends in a draw.
Then another Elephants (or any other unit) enters in melee with th crossbow. The units overlap but if I have figured correctly we have 2 melees here. One is over so we have to fight the new one.
The crossbow are defeated are they retreat.
Ok, both melee have ended.

In the next turn we will have a melee with 2 Elephants (or 1 Elephant + another unit) against the pikes
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Re: facing pikes

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:02 pm

Heavy cavalry (CP) do not need to withdraw do they?

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Re: facing pikes

Post by Zippee on Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:39 pm

Granicus Gaugamela wrote:Heavy cavalry (CP) do not need to withdraw do they?

No, but to be fair to Lorenzo he referred to the last example and its been some time since anyone referred to CP or CM it's just been "cavalry" or "cav" which isn't very helpful Very Happy
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Re: facing pikes

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:43 pm

Correct, CP don't withdraw.
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