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2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

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2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by dadiepiombo on Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:57 am

These amendments will be soon included in 2015 edition of Advanced Impetus.


IMPETUS OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS 2015

5.11.1 Evading by Medium Cavalry, Light Cavalry, Light Chariots and Skirmishers (AMENDED PARAGRAPH)
Evading by CM, CL, CGL and S is optional and occurs after enemy fire or after the enemy declares a Charge. Obviously this cannot be Opportunity Fire or an Opportunity charge or a Counter-charge, since an Evading can only be performed by the inactive player. Evading is only allowed if the threat is frontal, i.e. if it comes, even partially, from the corridor created by the forward continuation of the two short-sides of the base (called “frontal projection”). Evading is not allowed as a reaction to a Pursuit move of the winner of a melee.
In the case of missile fire, the player must declare that he wants to evade before missile fire is performed but the Evading happens afterwards. There is a -1 penalty for firing at Evading troops and the shot is always taken at the original range.
In the case of a charge, Evading occurs before the last movement phase of the charging Unit.
Evading of a Unit not on opportunity is subject to a Discipline Test. If the test is successful it consists of a full movement phase directly to the rear. Failure of the Discipline test does not cause Disorder. If you want to Evade for more than one movement phase you cannot be in Disorder and must pass the Discipline Test like for multiple movement phases.
Modifiers to Discipline Test require for Evading:
+2 if the evading Unit is CL or S
-1 if the evading Unit is disordered
Units on opportunity don’t need to pass a test to evade.

Amendements to paragraphs 7.3 (DEPTH BONUS) and  7.5 (OTHER TACTICAL MODIFIERS)
-1 modifier for stationary chariot is removed.
+2 Depth Bonus for Warbands VS foot is removed.
A main Unit /Large Unit in melee gets a +1 modifier for each supported flank. A Unit/Large Unit has a supported flank when it is even partially in base contact with a friendly Unit/Large Unit of a kind with which it can form a Group. The Units must be in contact by side edge, not by angle and must have the same facing.
Units/Large Units still support each other's flanks even if in disorder and in melee.
In the case of Large Units, the contact must be with the frontal Units.
This modifier is not applied if the Unit/Large Unit is taken on the flank or rear.
This modifier is added to the normal bonus given by Supporting Units.
A main Unit/Large Unit in melee gets a +1 modifier if its discipline is better than that of the main unit it is fighting. Discipline A is better than discipline B which is better than discipline C (maximum modifier +1).

Amendment to paragraph 7.6.2
In the case of a draw against Infantry, the player controlling any CM/CL/CGL Units involved in the melee can choose to retreat by 5U+1d6 or remain in contact.

© 2015 Dadi&Piombo


Last edited by dadiepiombo on Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Axebreaker on Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:30 pm

Sounds great Lorenzo and should really help balance out some issues especially in 28mm where I think these issues were more pronounced. The effects in 15mm will be less, but still will improve the game play there as well. Should be a winner. Cool

That said Veteran Swiss will be seriously nasty!(Gulp!) Shocked However, they are not cheap so it should be ok. Wink

Looking forward to Impetus2 and even more so now! Very Happy

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:04 pm

Why do you think Christopher that Veteran Swiss will be anymore seriously nasty than they already are? In fact, I think the Swiss are net losers in these new rules where breadth matters a bit more and depth a bit less.
Overall I think the new rules do move the game forward and we will be trying them out tonight in our group.
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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Axebreaker on Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:41 pm

They benefit from both flank bonus, depth bonus and discipline bonus which sounds pretty good to me don't you think?

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:57 pm

With only a few units the Swiss getting support might be harder than you think. And the other side gets flank bonuses too. And after a certain point the number of melee dice gets irrelevant. It all comes down to the CT.
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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by frazer on Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:44 pm

sounds good


Last edited by frazer on Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Axebreaker on Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:59 pm

With only a few units the Swiss getting support might be harder than you think.

Not really as they are overwhelmingly infantry force or at least should be if playing as Swiss Confederation which is the assumption I was playing off of. If played as an allied force then that's another pickle altogether and would totally depend how important the player wishes to make them

Also, don't forget about the discipline bonus. Wink

And after a certain point the number of melee dice gets irrelevant. It all comes down to the CT.

No doubt there is some truth to that as any Impetus player knows the golden rule of get one hit and your in the fight. However, I still would prefer to be the guy rolling more dice with the odds in my favour then the other one.

Christopher

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:14 am

I have added in the amendments that the +1 for supported flank is not applied if you are taken on the flank/rear.
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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:47 am

If you actually think about it the big beneficiaries will be cheap blocks of low VBU troops esp pike.

The veteran Swiss get +2 on VBU 6 or a 30% uplift.

The crappy VBU troops can get the same +2 on their VBU 3 (66% uplift) or vbu 4 (50% uplift).

Plus the cheaper troops are more likely to have three ranks instead of 2 or even 1.

As I've said before, it bring the phalanx in as a genuine tactic. Cheap troops in formation will get overlaps and flank support benefits and be tougher opponents. At least until the formation gets broken. So those Swiss will still be bloody good, just their opponents will be less weak.

And as always it will reward genuine cohesive effort rather than the mob that get run all over the place like Brown's cows.

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:01 am

at the same time cheap blocks will suffer a +1 for lower Discipline, but the overall should work.
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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:04 am

Exactly. If the Officer in Charge runs a decent plan there are significant benefits to be had but if those cheap troops get out of line then they become easy meat.


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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Axebreaker on Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:28 am

@Lorenzo

I'm not complaining at all.Very Happy I understand the flank and loss of benefits and think it's appropriate. Like I said at the start I think these changes are great and will have a very good effect as they balance things. The thing about the Swiss just came to mind is all, but historically they were hard as old boots and folks realized shoot the buggers and don't fight them until you have too! It worked and probably would on the tabletop as well. Really looking forward to Impetus2 and let me know if you need some troop pictures or anything.Very Happy

@Granicus

Oh yes it benefits everyone except warbands who were overpowered imho. However, since they are likely to have large units and supported flanks they will still be strong just not the overpowering steam roller they ended up being(in 28mm anyhow).

As to the Veteran Swiss I only meant in a straight fight with their discipline, fully supported in the rear and both flanks supported will have few equals which is fine. However, they will be expensive which brings other problems like flanks and attrition issues that balances it all out in the end.

The changes sound great and I'm very keen to try them out!Very Happy

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:33 am

How does Swiss discipline help them in a straight fight? I may be missing your meaning.

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Axebreaker on Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:47 am

@Granicus

A main Unit/Large Unit in melee gets a +1 modifier if its discipline is better than that of the main unit it is fighting. Discipline A is better than discipline B which is better than discipline C (maximum modifier +1).

Veteran Swiss are A classed discipline. Is it possible you missed this section? If so it would explain how you haven't listed that part in your discussion. I just assumed you read this.

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:11 am

Unfortunately all my guys are heading off to Canberra this weekend for a Comp and so there will be no scheduled games for two weeks for me Sad so no chance to test out amendments.

Good luck to all the guys at CanCon (15mm and 28mm Comps)


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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:22 pm

Yes Chris, but again, what is your point?   In a straight fight the veteran Swiss at a minimum of 49 (edited my typo of 39) points of troops to get a base VBU of 5 would be facing more numerous enemies eg Macedonian pike downgraded to vbu4 C.  For 42 points that means the Swiss are vbu5+2 for A vs C as a basic +1 for depth = 8 whereas the pantodapoi are vbu4 +1 for flank +1 for depth = 6 plus the supporting unit giving half it's dice for another 3 to to 9 (impetus aside).

So instead of being statistically outgunned the C grades in phalanx are now a serious enemy.

Or were you meaning "straight fight" to be a single expensive unit vs a single cheap unit?  In which case yes, the cheapies are likely to cop a flogging. Which doesn't seem that unfair.  

And given the cheapies will probably have an overlap at both ends they may well end up with +2 flank support.  

Again, when you actually think about it the benefits for the cheap guys are proportionally greater than for the lesser number of more expensive good guys.  As long as the player is halfway decent then poor quality troops now have a better chance than they did previously (warband aside).


Last edited by Granicus Gaugamela on Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:16 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo 39 corrected to 49)

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Axebreaker on Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:18 pm

39?

Swiss veteran front rank troops are 34points with VBU 6(Impetus 3 p.12) + 42 for both full rear supports clocks in at 76 points per block. Typical game sizes are at least 350pts which would allow the Swiss player to build supported flanks through other Pike blocks.

A fully supported veteran Swiss would be VBU 6, +2 flank supports,+1 discipline(probably), + Pike depth bonus depending on fighting infantry or cavalry and all the extras that gives. So they would likely outclass most in melee if in that situation. As to the Swiss being the all conquering army is another matter altogether as they would be vulnerable to what all elite armies are which is attrition and small size making flanks possibly vulnerable which I have mentioned already. The only point I was making is that in melee they will be tough hombres.

I seem to get the feeling that your thinking I'm saying the Veteran Swiss will be too powerful or too dominant and somehow unfair which not all what I'm saying, but rather just that with all the possible bonuses they could receive can be nasty indeed in melee.

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by grenadiergrandson on Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:08 pm

Hi Lorenzo,

In an earlier thread on new rules for 2015 someone mentioned a shooting penalty for troops that are interpenetrating before shooting; that sounded a good idea, have you any thoughts on that? It may help to curb the rotating machine gun fire of CL and FL with javelin armies who queue up to blaze away, but may not be too popular with fans of those armies though Wink

I guess the rationale could be its not a 'normal' open move as the troops are having to navigate their way through others, even if widely spaced it could be more time consuming than normal giving less time to shoot after.

Cheers

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by AncientWarrior on Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:40 am

Understanding that no wargame situations occur in a vacuum, let us say, for sake of example, that 3 large units of Gallic warriors are moving toward a line of Roman legionary infantry.

RRRRRRRRR




bbbTaaaTkkk

- where RRRRRRRRR represents the 3 units of Roman heavy foot in 1 group

- where bbb, aaa, and kkk represent the leading edge of the 3 large units of Gallic FL warriors; 9u separate the opposing lines

bbb, aaa, and kkk are not a group. The T represents a small space between each unit.


bbb charges and rolls the charge bonus die and is able to get stuck in. The pila volley does nothing (of course). The number of dice rolled by large unit bbb is 8 (VBU of 4 plus the Impetus value of 4). There is NO bonus for warband versus infantry.



Now then, if there is no space between the Gallic large units, and a group charge is made, bbb will roll 9 dice in the melee round. (Again, the Roman pila failed to do anything.)

The supporting unit - aaa - to its immediate right, was disordered by the pila volley of the second Roman unit so will add only (VBU of 4 + Impetus of 4 + negative 1 for being disordered) divided by 2 and rounded up . . . gives us 5 more dice.

So, if my math is  correct and I understand this particular amendment, then the aaa large unit will roll 14 dice in the melee round - to be applied against the selected main Roman unit.

The Roman main unit, because it did not countercharge, will NOT get Impetus and so, will roll 6 dice of its own and 3 for the supporting unit, for a total of 9.

So the first round of melee will see 14 Gallic dice rolled against 9 Roman dice, right?


Does this  amendment supersede the rule in 5.2 about group movement? In reviewing the language of the amendment, it seems to suggest that units of a group can be disordered and still function as a group.

Is this a correct interpretation?


Thanks.

Here’s hoping that the new edition of the rule book comes with copious and clear diagrams explaining key aspects of the rules and amendments.

Regards,

Chris

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Axebreaker on Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:56 am

Does this amendment supersede the rule in 5.2 about group movement? In reviewing the language of the amendment, it seems to suggest that units of a group can be disordered and still function as a group.

Good question. Probably only applies to an inactive group and /or stationary group that became disordered through melee or firing and not active groups attempting to move with disordered units.

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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:32 pm

AW, based on your diagram bbb and aaa fight different Roman units and so there is no support offered by the second Gaul unit. I don't believe that the group rule has been changed. Disorderd units cannot be part of a group.

The wording in the amendment is that a covered flank is provided if the units are lined up base to base on the flanks and the two units could form a group. So mounted and infantry cannot provide support for each other. Impetuous and non impetuous infantry cannot provide support for each other. Interestingly, it looks like a unit of S could provide support for other troop types if the conditions are meet (a bit risky since they would be in dispersement range.)  

Lorenzo I think the new rule might be better called "covered flank" rather than "supported flank" to distinguish it from rules around supporting units.
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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:30 pm

first I answer to Grenadier, then I check the other questions.

The modifier for interpenetartion is just on of the things I'm testing. Interpenetratio=move for shooting penalty. It is just an idea on this stage. First I want to see how CL perform with the new amendments. CL is costy unit with low VBU. And shooting with waves is their normal tactics.
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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:38 pm

The rules on group didn't change The Gauls could not charge as a Group.
To cover each other the Units are of kind that CAN form a Group, not that they ARE a Group.
Usually a Mounted cannot cover the flank of a foot because a mounted cannot usually form a Group with a foot.

Now in the example, also the Romans has the +1 for supported (covered?) flank.
They have and Warbands not beacuse they are separate.

The amendments valorize the Groups during the manouvre phase as once they are no longer a true Groups they can still keep the "line".
The bonus is for the line.
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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:39 pm

Can you confirm Lorenzo that an S could provide a covered flank to both mounted and infantry if it fulfills all the other conditions? If the answer is yes this gives another role to S troops.
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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:58 pm

yes it can
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Re: 2015 OFFICIAL AMENDMENTS

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