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Scorpio rules

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Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:17 am

This is an idea for a special rule to apply to Roman armies from Caesar to Late Empire.

Roman army had a lot of artillery, above all light ones. Each legion had a good number.
So far the rules allow you to add balistas at 15pts. Ok these can represent heavier Artillery.

The rule I'm thinking at is this
1) Add Scorpio to each (any) legionary unit at +5pts
2) Scorpio can fire 2 dice up to 30U, but not a point blank (no shooting here)
3) if you move detract 1 die (per movement), if you are in disorder detract another die etc. - 1die for shooting at CL/S (standard rules)

This would improve Early Imperial and Middle Imperial army a little.

Opinions?
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:00 am

It would be nice to have a model or something with the unit, so that people can spot which unit has them and which doesn't

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Tarty on Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:28 am

Are these incorporated into the unit? ....so not an actual separate unit as such ?
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Tarty on Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:29 am

Ah ok just read your post Jim ..question answered
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:30 am

the idea is to make a special rule in Avanced Impetus (like Shieldwall or Jean d'Arc) and yes incorporated in the unit.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Tarty on Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:37 am

Sounds interesting. I like the idea.
Jeez these Romans are becoming very hard to deal with....now they'll be able to shoot at you as well Shocked
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:50 am

Not sure that all units had them all the time, so yes the +5 points per unit would work for me. Brings another aspect of history into the game.

Would they be available to all units or only elite type units?
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:02 pm

I was thinking to allow to all troops classed as legionaries for simplicity.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:52 pm

I think you could limit the dates.
I'm not sure there's much evidence for it before Augustus as an integral part of the legion, and with the later Roman legions they seem to have separated the artillery off into separate legions solely of artillery.
So I'd say restrict it to Early and Middle Imperial.

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:12 pm

So no Caesar?
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:12 pm

One option could be also to limit to VBU 6 legionaries, so not to raw legions.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:17 pm

dadiepiombo wrote:So no Caesar?

There appears to be a divergence of opinion.
I'll check
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:05 pm

Right.
The problem is that the best source is Vegetius 2.25, the mobile field artillery component of
each legion consisted of 10 stone-throwers (onagri) and 55 boltshooters (carroballistae) each manned by 11 men.

But he's right at the end of the Empire and looking back and he gets his eras mixed up.

We know that each of Caesar’s and Pompey’s
legions had an equestrian officer called praefectus fabrum (and/or castrum?) and/or architect in charge of the siege equipment (mining equipment, towers, shed, rams etc.), baggage, artillery (arrow/dart/spear shooting scorpions/catapults and stone-shooting
ballistae) and camps.

But we Caesar never talks about using artillery in field battles, (for example Gaul) and it seemed to be restricted to sieges in Gaul. But we do hear of it being used in the civil war. But some of their field battles were actually fighting between lines of encirclement and similar so were virtually sieges

And we do know that the legions lost their artillery in the late Empire.

So I'd suggest that for Caesar (indeed up until Augustus and the Empire) legions have have this integral artillery if they start behind field fortifications, and if they move, they lose the artillery. Because there's no evidence that the artillery at the time was mobile or was used 'in field battles'

For Early and Middle Imperial, then ALL legions, however good or bad, are equally entitled to them. And because they had Ballista mounted on carts, they can move with the legion.

Then with Late Roman the legions lose this ability entirely, but you can buy the artillery to use as artillery units.

Jim
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:41 pm

Well done Jim, thanks for the info. I think the reasoning is good and would work within the rules and the various lists.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by starkadder on Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:46 am

Not convinced that you need a model for them, Jim, although I have a separate stand for mine. Wouldn't it be acceptable to copy the hamippoi approach and simply pay the points without necessarily including the figures?

Possibly a button indicator that they they are so equipped? I tend to agree that the lower the grade the less likely they would be to be equipped with artillery.

The Marian ("Caesarean") Romans in the rule-set don't even rate them. This is odd to me as that's the only "official" list for late Republicans. The recent beta includes them.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:43 am

Remember that under the Empire a legion is a legion is a legion.
During the late republic legions were hastily equipped, under-strength, recruited from men who wouldn't have been admitted in time of peace, and were probably short of equipment. So if not everybody has armour, it's not surprising if it hasn't got artillery.
But under Augustus and his men, a legion is raised (which didn't happen every generation) and equipped without the same sense of frantic haste. A lower grade legion is one where the men have 'gone to seed', normally because they've been billeted in a city in the East rather than remaining in camp.
They didn't lose their artillery because of this, they lost their discipline and their toughness.

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:43 am

Remember that under the Empire a legion is a legion is a legion.
During the late republic legions were hastily equipped, under-strength, recruited from men who wouldn't have been admitted in time of peace, and were probably short of equipment. So if not everybody has armour, it's not surprising if it hasn't got artillery.
But under Augustus and his men, a legion is raised (which didn't happen every generation) and equipped without the same sense of frantic haste. A lower grade legion is one where the men have 'gone to seed', normally because they've been billeted in a city in the East rather than remaining in camp.
They didn't lose their artillery because of this, they lost their discipline and their toughness.

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:54 am

Remember that under the Empire a legion is a legion is a legion.
During the late republic legions were hastily equipped, under-strength, recruited from men who wouldn't have been admitted in time of peace, and were probably short of equipment. So if not everybody has armour, it's not surprising if it hasn't got artillery.
But under Augustus and his men, a legion is raised (which didn't happen every generation) and equipped without the same sense of frantic haste. A lower grade legion is one where the men have 'gone to seed', normally because they've been billeted in a city in the East rather than remaining in camp.
They didn't lose their artillery because of this, they lost their discipline and their toughness.

Jim
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo on Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:42 am

oh yes, a simple model but even a marker can fit the role. I plan to put a couple of scorpio models in my EIR bases.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:20 am

dadiepiombo wrote:oh yes, a simple model but even a marker can fit the role. I plan to put a couple of scorpio models in my EIR bases.

I think it would be a pity not to use some sort of marker, there's some beautiful toys out there Cool

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by starkadder on Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:08 am

There is a similar issue in 18th Century gaming where attached battalion guns are often either not acknowledged or not represented.

I am not advocating any standard artillery issue, Jim. I agree that the late Republic could be very scrappy. Just suggesting that it could be a paid-for factor in a stand.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:33 am

Which Beta list are you referring to Starky?   I was also under the impression that the locally recruited troops (discipline C) lacked artillery as an integral part of the unit.   I would advocate a model if it is a separate unit but possibly a marker if it's integral.   Basing a Scorpio on a base with foot troops would be rather crowded and would overemphasise the artillery piece I would think. Leave it up to the individual I guess, whatever fits and looks good.


Last edited by Dennis Maxentius on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by starkadder on Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:45 am

The one you've been working on, DM.

Marian list
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Dennis Maxentius on Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:51 am

Thought that's what you meant. But it hasn't been made an official Beta List yet.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:28 am

There are some in game limitations that need to be addressed to avoid abuse.

Firstly they should be modelled, even if that means a model placed behind the legions so equipped. Otherwise there is a very real risk of abuse or confusion as to which unit has them.

Secondly there needs to be some thought as to how they work in game - are they treated as artillery when applying effects - ie fire against fortifications etc or are we saying they are just another normal shooting attack??

On a similar note how do they move and what happens to them in combat - normal artillery just evaporate on contact so does a Legion that has them lose them if pushed back (another reason to put a model in there somewhere)

I like the idea but it needs some thought.

I'd also like someone to define what a Legion is in this case - we already have some Roman artillery available in the lists - this seems to be in addition to that and I'm not convinced that should be the case
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