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Scorpio rules

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by accard on Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:03 pm

How about hits from Scorpios only cause disorder, not casualties, due to the low rate of fire? (At whatever dice rate/range is eventually determined best)

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:06 pm

That would work for me but I cant see much difference to causing a discipline test - does have one positive - it would be theoretically possible to cause a casualty check on a leader using that method.

Currently a 6 always means fail with a casualty - would that still apply?
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by accard on Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:29 am

My initial thought was no casualty with a 6, but maybe that should remain?

I think the leader casualty check on a 6 should apply though.

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:15 am

The Scorpio as a sniper weapon taking out leaders?

I think not Sir.

If you want to treat them as weak artillery then so be it, just give them range factors that apply to their 1VBU base.

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:35 am

GG - the "sniper" thing is inherent in their having ANY attack dice - if you roll a 6 on a cohesion test you must test for Leader Casualties.

Actually I assumed from my reading this "sniper" use was exactly what the original source material was suggesting when saying they could pick off individual targets at 100 meters??

I would prefer a simple forced discipline test. As I said earlier I don't think the amount of fire would cause significant numbers of casualties to justify actual losses of VBU. Lorenzo thinks that is too abstract and wants to give them 2 dice of fire - which I think is guaranteed to cause balance problems and cause casualties. Accard has suggested a restriction that they can only cause disorder, which is a nice middle ground between the abstract I proposed and the other extreme Lorenzo is suggesting. If you accept that, then the knock on effect is what happens when a unit IS actually hit and needs a cohesion test?

What happens on the cohesion test if the roll is a 6 anyway - does the "disorder only" outrank the "6 is always a fail +1 casualty" rule?

When a unit with a leader rolls a 6 on the cohesion test it would normally test for leader casualties, so should it in this case? I dont like special rules and exceptions much, and we already have at least one attached here so more is not attractive to me - I would like to stick to the core mechanic as close as we can.  I quite like the option as it gives a nice narrative to the mechanism, and the actual chance of causing a leader casualty is pretty minimal.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:57 am

And just when I thought it was reaching a testable position - what do we think about interaction with opportunity?

If it is a totally abstract force one unit within range to test discipline or be disordered I don't think it would constitute the firers needing to come off opportunity, however if there is the possibility of real dice & casualties involved clearly they would have to simply for balance purposes. At that point I would question the process. Rather than creating a mechanism that represents the long range harassing and goading fire I think the Scorpios provided, we risk creating a Super Pilum where the Legion comes off opportunity, shoots 2 dice with a scorpio, 3 with their Pilum, then impacts. That is a bit too much for me.

Opportunity is a big factor for Legions, particularly now they can pick up even more dice from the 2015 support amendments. Losing that because you fire 2 dice is almost certainly not worth it now, so we may be chasing our tails over something that will not be used
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by accard on Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:43 am

Artillery used as a sniper weapon taking out leaders is one of the few historical accounts of roman artillery we have - as described by Ammianus at either Dura Europus or Amida, I can't remember off hand which.
Later empire though.
I don't know whether leaders having to roll for casualties on a 6 will really be a sniper effect though - might stop leaders just sitting around in scorpio range which seems sensible.

But the core of my suggestion is that hits by scorpios cause disorder rather than losses to VBU.

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:55 pm

As I suggested, I'd be happy with that as long as we ironed out the results of the cohesion test - so does a 6 actually cause casualties?, does a 6 require a leader check if appropriate?, what happens when a scorpio hits a disordered target - is this a disorder casualty?

It seems a lot but I'm sure it is in reality fairly easy to sort out.

If we can get something agreed by Saturday there is a friendly competition Sunday we can try it at and report back
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by accard on Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:32 pm

My suggestion would be no to the casualties in either case but yes to the leader check.

so scorpios can only cause disorder to the enemy - and maybe the odd lucky leader strike.

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:49 pm

The other thing to remember is that actually the artillery probably only fires at long range, when the enemy is close, get the damned things out of the way and let the infantry get in :-)

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:37 pm

If the Scorpions are firing 1d6 then a 6 on the CT produces in most cases 1 damage on the VBU, occasionally 2. So in the vast majority of cases at hit creates only a disorder effect. I don`t think we need any special rules on this.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:21 am

That may be the case if you consider it in isolation, but the proposal (2 dice) would be available across all legionary units so it is possible that there will be 10 (or more) shots a turn at 2 dice. Given a casualty in Impetus has serious implications - ie loss of Impetus, and given all legionary units will be shooting out to at least 15U or possibly even 30U the chance of two disorders causing a kill is highly likely. Thats too much for me - I would prefer a simple disorder only effect (plus a leader check if indicated)
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Tarty on Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:58 am

Half decent skirmish screen will make them ineffective pretty much if they move or are disordered then would be on 0. Don't see them as any real threat but nice to have as a bit of bling Wink
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm

I must have missed something - they will be firing 2 dice, and even through a skirmish screen thats enough to disorder and cause casualties - where did the 1 dice thing come from??

I'll see if we can test 2 dice and only disorders over the weekend - what range should they have - 400m is more like 30U than 15?
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Tarty on Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:34 am

What I'm talking about is 2 dice for scorpions to start with as discussed .
However -1 if firing at S/CL, -1 if they move and -1 if disordered.
About the only way they are going to be of any real concern ( get full 2 dice ) is if they stay stationary and shoot at things other than S or CL.
They may come in handy for some things occasionally sure...but overall for an army that is really all about contacting the enemy to have that amount of points sitting back shooting scorpions at 2 dice is something you'd have to way up....personally I would use other troops more suited to this role and at half the cost.
They're a nice addition though ( texturally ) so I'm all for it Cool
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:43 am

Just treat them like Light Artillery and pay for them accordingly. Simple as that.

Or do we want to get into real stratification of Arty, does a 12 pounder with iron balls do more damage than an 18 inch rounded rock?

The cohesion test is not about casualties directly, it is about morale of the unit. Unless you believe the Scorpion is such an exception why bother with different rules? Should we start comparing the efficiency of a bronze age sword with that of the late Renaissance and figuring out special rules for one or the other?

Clearly not. So why treat the Scorpion differently?

I can think of many things that are far more "different" than a Scorpion and we don't bother too much with them.


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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:56 am

Hi Tarty - I suspect you are being a bit relaxed there. At the moment the cost is 15 points to equip up to 10 Legionary units - so if they stand still a theoretical 20 dice a turn. You wont get much else for 15 points. You are certainly not going to target skirmishers with them - unless you have to - just shoot through at half dice.

If you are using a Legionary heavy army and taking the new support rules into account you "probably" will be stationary to ensure you get the benefit of those two supports - they mean you can receive a charge and still get 11 (eleven) dice in melee.

GG - Lorenzo made this proposal because he felt the distribution of the Scorpios down to the Legionary level was worth representing. These are the same 60  weapons that are listed as 0-2 Arty B in the EIR list, however they are not being used en masse - which would, as you say, just be Arty B. We are looking at treating Scorpios differently because - a) Lorenzo wants to (probably because his beloved Legions still keep getting a kicking) and b) because their use devolved is a bit different. They are still "just arty B" (to paraphrase) but their use is different

I have some sympathy for both these positions - partly because it is embarrassing to have to keep explaining to the public that the Legions "are a bit disappointing in Impetus".

As an aside I think we should have a difference between a Bronze Age weapon system and a Medieval one - I think there should have been an upper cap on VBUs for early troop types or troop types who have anachronistic weaponry so that we could avoid the ludicrous situation of troops armoured in something similar to feathers and carrying sharpened fruit getting similar factors to Legionaries or fully armoured (in steel) men at arms.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:24 am

I wouldn't disagree with you on the cap for early troop types Cyrus but the problem is not every wargamer has opponents with armies in the 'correct' era. Traditionally ancient wargamers have had to think themselves lucky to have an army dated within a couple of hundred years of their opponents

Jim
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:14 am

Jim Webster wrote:I wouldn't disagree with you on the cap  for early troop types  Cyrus but the problem is not every wargamer has opponents with armies in the 'correct' era. Traditionally ancient wargamers have had to think themselves lucky to have an army dated within a couple of hundred years of their opponents

Jim

That would not be a problem Jim - a cap would make (for instance) the Bronze Age troops cheaper, so you could still play out of period opposition with a reasonable balance.

Maybe a topic for another thread -? Probably not really worth it as Lorenzo is committed to the current "sharpened guava halves can be VBU 6 " approach
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Tarty on Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:42 am

Cyrus The Adequate wrote: At the moment the cost is 15 points to equip up to 10 Legionary units
I thought the proposal was 5pts per unit to equip with scorpions ? I'm going off the first post by Lorenzo ....has this changed ?
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Tarty on Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:50 am

Ok just read back over the thread 10 units at 15pts ? no that would be a killer. Stick with 5pts per unit ... that would get my vote.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:49 am

Hi Tarty - sorry - its the "instant rebuttal unit" striking. The reason I was proposing allowing the breaking down of the Arty B is that is the historical precedent - and as you get 0-2 in the list that supports 20 Legionary units at 500 pts then 10-1 seems the "exchange rate". The problem is you cant really have both options - ie splitting them up and massing them - you do one or the other as there is a finite amount, so you cant allow a unit of arty B and Scorpios in Legion units. I really like giving the commander the option, but at that point you need to balance what you are getting for your buck as well as any historical evidence. That (to me) is why I like 2 dice, max range 30 U (which is the closest historically to what they could achieve) but disorder only. It fits with my understanding of history and usage, Lorenzo's desire to represent them (and not to be too abstract), and keeps them from being overpowered (hopefully). What we need is some testing
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:00 am

I was considering 5pts per legion, so not that cheap if we want that all or none legions make such use of Scorpios.

As an alternative if we want to keep a relationship between the scorpios in the lists and those "attached" (and make clear that you cannot buy both) you must buy both 2 art B in the list to equip ALL legions.

It means you have to spend 30pts (the cost of an Expert General, or an Average General + 2 destiny rolls) to allow your legion a close support artillery, useful only at 15U. At this distance S/CL make total screen.
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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:26 pm

I prefer the second option. I think you may have to think about the range - 15U is the same as a Javelin. The historical references make the scorpio reach out past bow range so 30U seems more appropriate. Depends on if you want it to be restricted to disorder results as 30U with the possibility of kills is a bit much?

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Re: Scorpio rules

Post by Jim Webster on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:32 pm

Actually I'd say it makes more sense to have a minimum range than a maximum range. When the enemy get within a certain distance it's a case of getting the artillery out of the way so the Infantry can fight
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Re: Scorpio rules

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