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Scorpio Playtest

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Scorpio Playtest

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Sat May 23, 2015 5:32 pm

Just back from our friendly monthly Impetus meet with news and views on the proposed Scorpio rules.

To recap, we were just using Lorenzo's last suggestion - Scorpios could be bought as either arty B as per the list, or distributed down to the Cohorts. Distributed Scorpios grant a Legion 2 dice shooting up to 30u but no shooting at point blank. Scorpios are lost when Impetus is lost, just like Pila

I borrowed an EIR army to try this out at 350pts and had 4 Scorpio equipped Legionary units. We played 2 games, one vs a Carthaginian, one vs an Ancient Brit. After the games we had a bit of a chat about how we felt they worked. Both opponents were unphased by them - I think the best result was a single casualty, and a couple of disorders. From the Roman side I felt they were useful but only if stationary, which sacrificed the initiative to the opposition just a little but too much for my liking. Either way it worked without a feeling that they were over or under powered.

One swallow does not make a summer, but based on today's two games we dont see a problem with Lorenzo's proposal.

One point - the EIR list allows Auxilia to fight as Legionaries - in this case we decided they would NOT get the Scorpio option, just the real Legionaries
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by Tarty on Sun May 24, 2015 12:25 am

Nice one... interesting. Thanks for the report back Cyrus. Yep think you did the right thing not giving them to Auxilia think Lorenzo has already alluded to this on a previous occasion ?

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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Sun May 24, 2015 9:37 am

I should add there was no problem tracking the Scorpios even though we didnt put anything on the bases. I think it would have been nice to if we could have kept them down to a very small footprint but far from essential and would be very expensive

Would these work?

http://war-bases.co.uk/ACCESSORIES/WAR-MACHINES?product_id=363

£1 each could be the thing
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon May 25, 2015 1:17 pm

yes, only for true legionaries.

Don't know if you have added this, but I think they should be lost after the first contact like other artillery.

A right wording of the new rule would be helpful. So I can make all three changes that are required and add in Advanced Impetus

1) Large Units of T fire with frontal rank
2) All FL with javelin and with VBU 5 get switch to have Heavy Javelin instead
3) scorpio rules
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by GamesPoet on Mon May 25, 2015 1:32 pm

And "Heavy Javelin" means "Pilum"?

"Heavy Javelin" isn't listed on the Firing Table.

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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon May 25, 2015 1:43 pm

Heavy Javelin is similar to pilum, but with 2 dice on attack and 2 on defence. Of course it will be explained in the text.

A fourth change could the to restore the +2 bonus for Warbands if all agree (there could be better optiosn but I will take in consideration for Impetus 2.)
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by Tarty on Mon May 25, 2015 11:13 pm

Yes you've got my vote for all these including giving back the +2 depth bonus for warbands that's sounding like it's needed to rebalance things a little.
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue May 26, 2015 12:23 am

My only qualm would be the "ALL FL with javelin" bit - I still think there is room for a couple such as where you upgrade a general to VBU 5 - and can you think of a better name than heavy javelin - "pre impact missiles" or "heavy throwing weapons" maybe??

I wouldn't bother with losing the Scorpio after first contact - just say they lose it when they lose impetus - easier to track and uses a mechanism we already have
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by GamesPoet on Tue May 26, 2015 2:22 am

dadiepiombo wrote:Heavy Javelin is similar to pilum, but with 2 dice on attack and 2 on defence. Of course it will be explained in the text.
So does this represent a light infantry unit with a single heavy throwing spear, and then they pull out their side weapon for the rest of the battle?

Also, it starts to seem as if that keeping the FL at VBU 4 and always being able to use the full value is better than upgraidng to VBU 5, but maybe I'm just missing something with this. If this is accurate, then it seems like just not offering an upgrade could be ok.

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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by dadiepiombo on Tue May 26, 2015 6:52 am

FL with VBU 5 are a good shock foot. They can cross terrains with no penalties, they are faster and in 99% they are D=B so can form lines good enough to have melee with new possible bonus. Also they have the point blank shooting that can help (2 also when they charge). I think they are a bit different from FL with VBU 4 and javelin and a good combination of both can be the key.

Of course they cannot face a pike phalanx frontally.
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue May 26, 2015 8:04 am

GamesPoet wrote:
dadiepiombo wrote:Heavy Javelin is similar to pilum, but with 2 dice on attack and 2 on defence. Of course it will be explained in the text.
So does this represent a light infantry unit with a single heavy throwing spear, and then they pull out their side weapon for the rest of the battle?.

I think it is more that these troops are more willing to close to hand to hand combat range rather than trying to avoid contact like VBU 4 Javelin troops usually try to, so they reserve their missile weapons for the moment of the charge. They may have the same weapons as the VBU 4 types but their mode of fighting is to do it close and personal.

Not sure if Lorenzo is planning to mess about with the points - I'm assuming not, so they will stay at 3 pts for pilum, same as a Jav
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by dadiepiombo on Tue May 26, 2015 8:21 am

same points, yes
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue May 26, 2015 1:28 pm

I think VBU5 javelin armed infantry needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis. So for armies like the Samnites where the VBU5 infantry is (or could be) the dominate infantry type the changes makes sense. But in the case of the Iberian lists in EI4 I don't think it is wise to include the Elite Scutarii under this change (I play against the Iberians quite a bit.) Why? Because the Iberian army as a whole is a skirmish army and the Elite Scutarii as they currently perform are part of that skirmish style with a bit of extra push. Plus in a 350 point army there are at most 3 units of this type. Also in the current list the Elite Scutarii are VD3. If the changes goes through an Iberian player with be loathe to pick them since they are only effective if meleeing opponents but at 3VD and only VBU5 they are too risky to use in this way.

The above example to my mind shows that this rule should be implemented on a case by case basis. After all, there isn't a lot of lists with VBU5 javelin troop types.
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by GamesPoet on Tue May 26, 2015 1:52 pm

Looks like this thread has moved away from a discussion of Scopios, and onto Javelins.  Maybe I could have asked my question, after having seen Lorenzo's list of items in his post, in the thread we already have regarding the Javelins topic.  Yet perhaps there is a way to seperate these posts from this thread and merge them into the other?

Meanwhile, I am seeing the same as Gaius regarding potentially having the "Heavy Javelin" as a list by list approach to its implementation.

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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by dadiepiombo on Tue May 26, 2015 2:20 pm

no, list by list no. There is enough to create confusion so far. Maybe in the future I will publish a second edition of each supplement, but not now.
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by GamesPoet on Tue May 26, 2015 3:43 pm

Ah, hadn't considered the idea that the lists are in more than one supplement, my apology.

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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue May 26, 2015 5:24 pm

Lorenzo there is hardly any lists that I can think, in EIs or Betas that have VBU5 Javelin infantry. Iberian (EI4), Irish (EI5) and Samnites (Beta) are the only ones that come to mind. Are there others? The Samnite list is fixed. So what else is there to do? So why wouldn't it be done list by list. Also the lists were put together with many considerations in mind and I think changing the effect of the troop type without considering this is a mistake. It is no accident that the Elite Scutarii are VD3.

I think this conversation should be happening under a different topic since it doesn't have anything to do with Scorpions.
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Re: Scorpio Playtest

Post by GamesPoet on Wed May 27, 2015 12:35 am

There are more beyond Iberian, Irish, and Samnites.

In the original rule book there are Macedonian Peltasts, Persian Takabara, Hannibal Carthaginian Spanish Scutarii, Parthian Daylami.  And in Impetus Extra 4, there are Macedonians and Persians if I recall (book not in front of me at the moment) Greek Peltasts, too.  I'm not sure about the rest of the the Extras.

As for the topic, these types of software usually have editing functions that can cut and paste and merge.

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