Latest topics
» A few questions on Groups
Today at 12:22 am by stecal

» Vapnartak York Feb 2018- format options?
Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:30 am by Cyrus The Adequate

» Help in making a errata/FAQ
Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:43 am by bunwin63

» Impetus bonus use by Inactive player unit.
Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:41 am by bunwin63

» Measuring sticks
Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:29 pm by kreoseus

» Q. Blocked Retreat After Combat
Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:28 pm by RogerC

» Army Lists for Issus and other battles
Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:21 am by Frostie

» Charge extension doubt
Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:55 pm by jorneto

» Game of Thrones
Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:16 am by Frostie

Vapnartak York Feb 2018- format options?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:26 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Hi everyone

I was pondering the options for the York competition and wondered …

Comments: 2

Impetus Competition Derby Worlds 2017

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:42 pm by Cyrus The Adequate

There will be a 28mm Impetus Competition at Derby World Wargames on 7th …

Comments: 42

Impetus at Derby?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:29 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Anyone interested ? 7th & 8th October at a new venue - Bruntingthorpe …

Comments: 11

Wintercon '17 July 15-16th

Sat May 06, 2017 11:44 pm by Tarty

Canberra July 15th-16th

Basic Impetus 2
28mm
Game days are Saturday and Sunday


Comments: 0

BI2 tournament - 25 March 2017

Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:08 am by RogerC

Would anyone be interested in a 28mm Basic Impetus 2 tournament on 25 March …

Comments: 24

28mm Impetus Competition York Sunday 5th February 2017

Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:44 am by Cyrus The Adequate

The traditional start to the Impetus Competition calendar in the UK is York in …

Comments: 80

October 2017
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
      1
2345678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
3031     

Calendar Calendar


Large units in Shieldwall

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Large units in Shieldwall

Post by AncientWarrior on Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:45 pm

Inspired by a recent post (I am nothing if not unoriginal Wink ), I thought I might put together a Dark Ages contest.

After reviewing the shieldwall rules in Version 1.5 of the Advanced Rules (Feb. 18, 2014), I am thinking about tweaking the rules in this manner:

- units wishing to form a shieldwall must pass a discipline test; there is no penalty of disorder for failing to adopt this defensive/offensive formation

- units/groups in shieldwall formation may move a half-speed; they may not take a second or extra move in a turn

- allow units in shieldwall to throw 2d6 worth of “pila” if charged; this is a one-time event

- allow units in shieldwall to throw 1d6 worth of “pila” when moving into contact; this is also a one-time event


Looking at the Danish Vikings list on page 25 of Extra IMPETVS 2, I see that FP Huscarls can form large units. Units of Huscarls have a VBU of 5 and an Impetvs of 3.

If formed as a large unit and advancing into melee, a check of the tables in the rule book and on the QRS (version 6.0), informs that the unit would roll 8 dice.

Casualties would apply to the rear rank unit, but disorder would apply to the large unit as a whole, so subsequent melee rolls would use 7 dice only as long as the large unit remained fresh (i.e., had not suffered any losses).

Thanks for your help .

Chris

AncientWarrior
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 75
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-06-09
Age : 52
Location : USA - Midwest region

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Large units in Shieldwall

Post by Tarty on Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:58 am

Sounds interesting let us know how it goes. Considering it will be pure Dark Ages it'll certainly free up the manoeuvring.
avatar
Tarty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 529
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Large units in Shieldwall

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:46 am

Shieldwall certainly needs "fixing" somehow, or possibly just deleting. The problem is balance as this is a free ability, so there must be some logical reason for it, and it has to have a negative as well as a positive effect.

The acid test is how often does it get used, and I found in previous versions players just ignored it.

As for the suggestion - I'd applaud any attempt to "fix" it. I'm not sure about giving them pilum etc as I always assume there is plenty of that happening anyway whenever 2 bodies of heavy foot meet, but I can live with it. One suggestion - drop the "one time only" restriction as it is too easy to forget, instead tie it to loss of impetus



avatar
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 536
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Large units in Shieldwall

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:59 am

Shieldwall is not an option, it is mandatory.

A smart enemy can use it to pin your formations and slow your advance whilst putting a counterplan into place.

That is the big downside of Shieldwall (IMHO).

Granicus Gaugamela
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 435
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Large units in Shieldwall

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:37 pm

Shieldwall is always entered into voluntary. The trade off is better missile fire protection and melee capabilities versus unit not being able to move. So great for holding ground against a counter attack but not so good for dealing with missile fire and maneuvering armies  armies. In some ways the Saxon and Viking lists already give a shieldwall like benefit by having large units of VBU5 infantry. It doesn't get used a lot since in Impetus armies usually need to keep moving.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 764
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Large units in Shieldwall

Post by AncientWarrior on Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:59 pm

Notes from the "front" -
Experiment seemed to work OK. The "pila" rule worked nicely I think even if it did not produce much in the way of damage against the enemy. Perhaps 2 units were disordered. The shieldwall moving (slowly) also worked OK, I think, even though this was just one game and an incomplete one at that. (Ever just lose interest in a tabletop battle?) Oh yes, the additional dice for berserkers worked pretty well.

On the plus side, it has me looking through my rule sets to see which ones allow for berserkers and which ones address the tactical issues of shield walls.

Will have to review this . . .

Chris

AncientWarrior
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 75
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-06-09
Age : 52
Location : USA - Midwest region

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Large units in Shieldwall

Post by Roughage on Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:45 pm

Sounds like you have made some good progress, Chris, although I suspect you have lots of testing still to do. I look forward to reading more about it.

You've not posted notes about additional dice for berserkers before. What was your thinking behind this and what mechanism are you using? On the berserker front, you might find the blog posts below of interest. For the sake of transparency, I wrote them all, so they reflect my interpretation based on my research, and they do not accord with received wisdom on the topic. Sorry. Smile
http://blogs.nottingham.ac.uk/wordsforwords/2014/03/11/the-viking-berserker/
http://ooh-shiny-complex.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/viking-berserkers-in-wargames-thesis.html
https://ruarighdale.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/did-viking-berserkers-go-berserk/

Roughage
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 52
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : North Ferriby

View user profile http://ooh-shiny-complex.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

Re: Large units in Shieldwall

Post by AncientWarrior on Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:58 pm

Greetings R -
Thanks for the note and wealth of information provided on your blogs. Congrats too, on your PhD! Smile

Progress? Neutral Perhaps . . . Testing? Definitely.

Apologies for not including the stuff about berserkers. Oversight on my part. Embarassed

Here is an excerpt of something I'm drafting at the moment - not really a battle report, more of an experiment and commenting on the results.

This was written before looking at your blog information so I imagine that it may very well change.

Thanks again for reading and responding.

Excerpt -
As I was planning on using the IMPETVS rules (readers familiar with my efforts will know that I need the practice) and as the rules do not have any provisions for these “specialist” troops, I had to develop some rule additions. After thinking about it a bit, I decided that the simple approach was best and simply had each side roll 2d6 to determine the number of “Berserker dice” they would have at their disposal. These “Berserker dice” could be added to any melee phase/round, thereby increasing the offensive “punch” of the engaged unit. A limit of 4 “Berserker dice” was established so that the melee would not become too one-sided. Further, it was established that “Berserker dice” were a one-time thing. They were used (added to the original number of melee dice) and that was it. One either rolled 6s and or pairs of 5s with the “Berserker dice” or one did not.

- end of Excerpt

Regards,

Chris

AncientWarrior
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 75
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-06-09
Age : 52
Location : USA - Midwest region

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Large units in Shieldwall

Post by Roughage on Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:12 pm

Thank you.

Based on my own research, I would not give any units berserker dice, because I don't believe in the out-of-control warrior paradigm. Instead I would nominate the best quality units as those containing the elite berserker bodyguards and leave it at that.

On the other hand, if you want to add colour to units by adopting the traditional paradigm, why not increase the impetus value of the units with berserkers in? The effect of the berserkers would then be in the charge where it probably ought to be, based on that model, and their deaths are modelled by the loss of impetus when the units are no longer fresh. It would save on record keeping. That said, the berserker dice would be easy enough to set to one side and discard as they are used.

Whichever option you personally would go for, you might find it useful to play to your audience rather than what the research says, because people do have certain expectations and it can be fun to engage with the Hollywood side of history too.

I'm looking forward to reading battle reports for all this now.

Roughage
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 52
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : North Ferriby

View user profile http://ooh-shiny-complex.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

Re: Large units in Shieldwall

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:20 pm

I think the presence or otherwise of this type of troops is already represented in the high Impetus factors the Huscarls etc get - no need to add it twice
avatar
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 536
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Large units in Shieldwall

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum