Latest topics
» Basic Impetus v Impetus?
Today at 12:25 pm by Zippee

» Some questions
Today at 11:35 am by RogerC

» VISABILITY
Yesterday at 2:51 pm by Geoffrm

» Basic Battles expansion
Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:18 pm by stecal

» any players in the northwest ?
Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:56 pm by Jim Webster

» Impetus Competition Derby Worlds 2017
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:31 pm by slowjoecrow

» First 3 games with Ptolemaics
Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:29 pm by Jim Webster

» Great Italian Wars by Sowabud
Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:26 am by Jim Webster

» Pilum, PBW and Impetus
Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:59 am by grenadiergrandson

Impetus Competition Derby Worlds 2017

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:42 pm by Cyrus The Adequate

There will be a 28mm Impetus Competition at Derby World Wargames on 7th …

Comments: 6

Impetus at Derby?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:29 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Anyone interested ? 7th & 8th October at a new venue - Bruntingthorpe …

Comments: 11

Wintercon '17 July 15-16th

Sat May 06, 2017 11:44 pm by Tarty

Canberra July 15th-16th

Basic Impetus 2
28mm
Game days are Saturday and Sunday


Comments: 0

BI2 tournament - 25 March 2017

Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:08 am by RogerC

Would anyone be interested in a 28mm Basic Impetus 2 tournament on 25 March …

Comments: 24

28mm Impetus Competition York Sunday 5th February 2017

Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:44 am by Cyrus The Adequate

The traditional start to the Impetus Competition calendar in the UK is York in …

Comments: 80

1° BASIC IMPETUS tournament

Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:19 am by PAPERO

in Castegnato , near Brescia, Sunday, 08.01.2017 Cool

1st tournament BASIC …

Comments: 3

August 2017
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031   

Calendar Calendar


1300-1100 Libyans

View previous topic View next topic Go down

1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:04 pm

I've come up with a list for the Libyans that challenged the New Kingdom Egyptians. I am especially interested in the Libyan invasions during the reign of Ramses III. I have consulted DBM and Warrior lists as well as taking some cues for ratings from other Impetus lists. In some ways the Libyan list that I propose is not dissimilar to the Beta Nubian list. Comments and suggestions are most welcome.

LIBYANS  1300 - 1100 BC  
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type                        M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 18 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
2-12 T - Archers                6 4 0 B 2 18 Short bow A
OR S – Archers                8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
4-24 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 4 1 B 2 19 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen        8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 4 2 B 3 18 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*)        8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S  (Skirmishers)        8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units. You can upgrade up to 50% of deployed S – Javelinmen to VBU=3, final cost 14 pts per Unit. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 761
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Jim Webster on Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:09 pm

Just comparing it with the DBMM lists I'd don't think there's a lot wrong Very Happy

Suggestions would be

Not sure why the Sea people's chariots are any different to the Libyan ones


The Libyan swordsmen seem reasonable (if only because these are obviously the cream of the army) but I'm not sure there's any argument for massed archery. I'd suggest the archers be S rather than T. 12 T archers with a VBU of 4 is a powerful missile force which the Libyans never had.

The Javelinmen I'd complicate a bit

I'd allow them to have some 'Horde' or second quality which would be VBU3/I1 But I'd give them the option to upgrade all to VBU 4

I'm not sure the justification for the skirmishing javelins to be VBU 3 which puts them on a par with Roman Velites
I'd stick with VBU 2

Jim


avatar
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 478
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:14 pm

Hi Jim

Thanks for the input. Really appreciate it.

I can embrace most your suggested changes. The only one that I would argue with is Libyan T troops. With respect to the historical argument there isn’t a lot of information concerning Libyans troops of 1200 BC.  There is no question that Libyans had archery available. How they should be represented is the question. I got the rating for Libyan T archers from several sources.  First, they are listed in the

Minoans and Early Mycenaeans Beta list
0-4 T - Lybian or Nubian Mercenaries 6 4 0 B 1 18 Short bow A

Second, massed archer units are listed in the DBM list for Libyans.  

Only from 2160 BC to 660 BC: Replace javelinmen with archers - Irr Ps (O) @ 2AP or Irr Bw (I) @ 3AP  
0-1/3



Frankly, if we are going to allow Nubian, Trojan and Achaians lists massed archer units of VBU4 then I think there is no reason to deny this to the Libyans either.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 761
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Jim Webster on Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:38 pm

The Libyan archers in the DBMM lists at Bow Inferior. This is often used for skirmishing archers who haven't got room to skirmish
(In the same way that Auxilia Inferior is often used for skirmishing javelinmen who haven't got room to skirmish and are forced to fight in closer order than they'd like.)

Comparing them to Nubians, remember that being good archers was the only reason you hired Nubians, they were the best. So Libyans shouldn't be as good as them. Similarly they shouldn't be as good as Egyptians
Yet giving them up to 12 VBU archers means they can have as many archers as New Kingdom Egyptian (Veteran archers and Nubians) and the Libyan archers are as good!

Setting out to make an army, for 350 points, allowing 50 for generals and stuff, I can have an army consisting of 4 units of FL Javelinmen and 12 units of T archers as good as the best in the middle east at the time.
Not sure what it is but it's not a recognisably Libyan army.
To get their archery in proportion you're looking at a couple of units and no better than VBU 3 (which puts them on a par with a lot of other troops from the Middle East at the time who also had no reputation for archery)

Jim
avatar
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 478
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:43 pm

I agree that T troops are not the core of the Libyan army. Perhaps 0-6 VBU 3 C would work best. What do you think?

LIBYANS 1300 - 1100 BC
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-6 T - Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short bow A
OR S – Archers 8 2 0 C 1 7 Short bow B
4-24 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 B 2 14 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S (Skirmishers) 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units. You upgrade any or all FL Javelinmen to VBU 4 for total cost of 19 points. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 761
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Jim Webster on Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:24 pm

I think the Skirmishing archers can be B class. If only because most skirmishers seem to be and I don't think Libyans were notoriously poor at it.

Also it struck me that in the footnotes it should perhaps say that Sea People's Warriors are only compulsory if you take the optional Sea People.
It's just that people can get confused between different army list styles and it doesn't hurt to be obvious.
I'd also up the Javelinmen minimum to 8. It might seem a lot but can include the skirmishing javelinmen which is what Libyan armies were always known for.
If you do that then you can probably leave your Archers at 0-6
It means the army is going to look more Libyan. You can have some decent 4/1 infantry, but if you do that
it's going to take half your points.

So how about allowing the player to have the javelinmen as 3/1 C class, but able to upgrade them all to B class and also upgrade all B class to VBU 4.

So you can then have an army where the best warriors have become warriors and the javelinmen and what's left.
It would also be pretty big, indeed convincingly large.

But you can also have a better quality army with better javelinmen but then you don't get to play with so much of the other nice toys Very Happy

Jim
avatar
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 478
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:08 am

Thanks Jim. I had made the S Short Bow B C class to encourage players to consider choosing them. Otherwise, it is highly unlikely most players will chose them over S Javelin. But no big deal. I have increased the FL category to 36 to allow players to use large numbers of VBU 3/C units. I have also lowered the VD of VBU 3 FL to 1. Let me know you think about these changes.

LIBYANS 1300 - 1100 BC
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-6 T - Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short bow A
OR S – Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
8-36 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 C 1 9 Javelin
Or FL - Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 B 1 14 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S (Skirmishers) 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units. Warriors are only compulsory if the Sea People Allied option is chosen. You can upgrade any or all FL Javelinmen B class to VBU 4/ VD 2 for total cost of 19 points. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 761
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Jim Webster on Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:19 am

I'd not really taken too much notice of the VD up to this point but I think if you've got chariots as 3, decent infantry as 2 and the rest as 1 you're probably about right Very Happy
avatar
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 478
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:57 pm

Thanks Jim. Here is the finished list for the Libyans with proper pointing.

APPROVED BY THE FORUM

LIBYANS 1300 - 1100 BC
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-6 T - Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short bow A
OR S – Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
8-36 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 C 1 12 Javelin
Or FL - Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 B 1 17 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S (Skirmishers) 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units. Warriors are only compulsory if the Sea People Allied option is chosen. You can upgrade any or all FL Javelinmen B class to VBU 4/ VD 2 for total cost of 19 points. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.


Last edited by Gaius Cassius on Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 761
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Jim Webster on Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:28 pm

We ought to get commission from those selling figures because we've turned it into a BIG army Cool
avatar
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 478
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:50 pm

Potentially so Jim. I love the Foundry Libyan figures so once the above becomes a Beta List I am thinking of painting one up. I already have some Sea Peoples so that helps a bit.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 761
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Jim Webster on Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:58 pm

Just wondering if there are any suitable plastics out there just to bulk them out

Jim
avatar
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 478
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Zippee on Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:22 pm

For the sake of avoiding daft questions it would be sensible if the notes stated that warriors and swordsmen can only form LU with the same. I know they have the same stat line but. . .
avatar
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 541
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 54
Location : London, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Jim Webster on Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:28 pm

Good thinking Zippee
avatar
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 478
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:10 pm

Will do Zippee.

APPROVED BY THE FORUM

LIBYANS 1300 - 1100 BC
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-6 T - Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short bow A
OR S – Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
8-36 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 C 1 12 Javelin
Or FL - Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 B 1 17 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S (Skirmishers) 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units with the same. Warriors are only compulsory if the Sea People Allied option is chosen. You can upgrade any or all FL Javelinmen B class to VBU 4/ VD 2 for total cost of 19 points. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 761
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Jim Webster on Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:24 am

Whilst your addition is perfect English and might even be described as elegant for it's lack of verbiage, with Impetus I always try to remember that we have a lot of players for whom English isn't their first language.
(And not just the Americans Wink )

Rather than saying "Warriors and Swordsmen can form Large Units with the same."
It might be safer to say
"Warriors may only form Large Units with other Warriors, and Swordsmen may only form Large Units with other Swordsmen."
A lot more wordy but probably safer

Jim
avatar
Jim Webster
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 478
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2014-05-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Zippee on Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:40 am

Absolutely. Complete clarity of intent saves a lot of anguish later.
avatar
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 541
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 54
Location : London, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:21 am

TOTALLY APPROVED BY THE FORUM!

LIBYANS 1300 - 1100 BC
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
0-8 FL- Swordsmen (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-6 T - Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short bow A
OR S – Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
8-36 FL – Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 C 1 12 Javelin
Or FL - Javelinmen (*) 8 3 1 B 1 17 Javelin
OR S - Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-1 SEA PEOPLES CONTINGENT
0-1 CGL – Chariots (*) 10 5 2 B 3 22 Various
2-12 FL- Warriors (*) 8 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-1 S (Skirmishers) 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin

NOTES AND OPTIONS. Swordsmen may form Large Units with other Swordsmen. Warriors may form Large Units with other Warriors. Warriors are only compulsory if the Sea People Allied option is chosen. You can upgrade any or all FL Javelinmen B class to VBU 4/ VD 2 for total cost of 19 points. You can only use CGL when it includes an attached general that is neither cowardly or incompetent.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 761
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 1300-1100 Libyans

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum