Latest topics
» An Ancient Campaign using Sabin's Empire as a basis and Basic Impetus (augmented) to fight the battles
Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:04 pm by 1ngram

» Averaging cohesion tests
Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:19 am by Tankred

» VISABILITY
Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:45 am by Gaius Cassius

» Basic Impetus v Impetus?
Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:25 pm by Zippee

» Some questions
Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:35 am by RogerC

» Basic Battles expansion
Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:18 pm by stecal

» any players in the northwest ?
Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:56 pm by Jim Webster

» Impetus Competition Derby Worlds 2017
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:31 pm by slowjoecrow

» First 3 games with Ptolemaics
Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:29 pm by Jim Webster

Impetus Competition Derby Worlds 2017

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:42 pm by Cyrus The Adequate

There will be a 28mm Impetus Competition at Derby World Wargames on 7th …

Comments: 6

Impetus at Derby?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:29 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Anyone interested ? 7th & 8th October at a new venue - Bruntingthorpe …

Comments: 11

Wintercon '17 July 15-16th

Sat May 06, 2017 11:44 pm by Tarty

Canberra July 15th-16th

Basic Impetus 2
28mm
Game days are Saturday and Sunday


Comments: 0

BI2 tournament - 25 March 2017

Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:08 am by RogerC

Would anyone be interested in a 28mm Basic Impetus 2 tournament on 25 March …

Comments: 24

28mm Impetus Competition York Sunday 5th February 2017

Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:44 am by Cyrus The Adequate

The traditional start to the Impetus Competition calendar in the UK is York in …

Comments: 80

1° BASIC IMPETUS tournament

Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:19 am by PAPERO

in Castegnato , near Brescia, Sunday, 08.01.2017 Cool

1st tournament BASIC …

Comments: 3

August 2017
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031   

Calendar Calendar


Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:15 am

When a unit is marked on opportunity but is displaced by a friendly unit does it lose its opportunity status? We had an S unit marked on opportunity and the S unit was displaced by a friendly CL. The S unit moved behind the CL. Does the S stay on opportunity? This was a hard call for us because displacement is technically not considered movement as per the rules. Still the S did move to a new location on the table top.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 764
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Tarty on Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:22 am

What a good question ! How come this has never come up before ? Laughing ....amazing. My guess is they would lose their opportunity status but interested to hear what others think.
avatar
Tarty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 525
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Zippee on Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:53 am

I think it's an abstraction caused by base sizes. I would leave the unit on opportunity unless the interpenetration caused disorder of course. That's the dividing point and is mostly voluntary as against involuntary
avatar
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 541
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 54
Location : London, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by starkadder on Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:18 am

Definitely lose the Opportunity. 

It is an action, that's it.
avatar
starkadder
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 302
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 63
Location : Tahmoor, NSW, Oz

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Zippee on Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:07 pm

Being interpenetrated isn't an action. The displacement is an artefact of some other unit's activation.
avatar
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 541
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 54
Location : London, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:21 pm

We took away the opportunity status but upon further reflection I am leaning towards Zippee's point of view. But I can see it both ways.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 764
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by starkadder on Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:00 pm

Zippee wrote:Being interpenetrated isn't an action.

Tell that to the unit being interpenetrated. 
Files open and close, ranks reform. It's an action,
avatar
starkadder
VBU 4
VBU 4

Posts : 302
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 63
Location : Tahmoor, NSW, Oz

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:47 am

starkadder wrote: Tell that to the unit being interpenetrated. 
Files open and close, ranks reform. It's an action,

According to the rules displacement isn't movement. There is the rub. But I do get your point.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 764
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Tarty on Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:58 am

It's a tricky one ....just how disruptive would this sort of action be ? I certain amount of 'reordering' would have to take place but is it enough to take their opportunity status off them?
Troop type might be different also S's and CL's might not be effected so much but what about T's or FL's ?
avatar
Tarty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 525
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:26 am

GC said it was displaced, not interpenetrated, so it clearly HAS moved, so no opportunity
avatar
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 524
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Zippee on Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:14 am

No the displacement is an artefact of figures on bases. The unit shouldn't really move but we can't put bases on top of each other.

You are saying if a unit moves entirely through its fine but if it can't clear it's not. Wether the interpenetrated unit loses opportunity can't depend on base size. That's plain silly.

If being interpenetrated was an action then the unit wouldn't get an activation afterwards would it. But it does so it can't be an action. Therefore it doesn't lose opportunity because it hasn't conducted an action.

Now we could change the rules to say that being interpenetrated by non S counts as being activated but it would be a big change. You'd see a lot less interpenetration close to the enemy, that's for sure!
avatar
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 541
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 54
Location : London, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by RogerC on Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:58 am

I'm with Zippee on this one. The interpenetrated unit hasn't been activated, so shouldn't lose its opportunity status.

I suppose the unit on opportunity has been told to 'watch out over there for enemy action'. Some friendly unit comes by and is allowed to pass through. However, as soon as that has happened, the unit on opportunity resumes its watch. Even if it has moved back a bit it'll still be watching, since it hasn't been told (activated) to do anything else.

RogerC

RogerC
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 140
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-05-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:48 pm

RogerC wrote:I'm with Zippee on this one. The interpenetrated unit hasn't been activated, so shouldn't lose its opportunity status.

I suppose the unit on opportunity has been told to 'watch out over there for enemy action'. Some friendly unit comes by and is allowed to pass through. However, as soon as that has happened, the unit on opportunity resumes its watch. Even if it has moved back a bit it'll still be watching, since it hasn't been told (activated) to do anything else.

RogerC

Not sure that follows - loss of opportunity is not just dependant on action but also circumstance - if a unit is disordered by enemy action it loses opportunity. It follows (surely) that if displaced it also loses opportunity? What if the unit causing the displacement were something more substantial than a LH like a panicked EL?
avatar
Cyrus The Adequate
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 524
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-05-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Tarty on Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:00 pm

I think you've nailed 'the elephant in the room' here Cyrus Smile I'm leaning towards loss of opportunity myself.
avatar
Tarty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 525
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:29 am

The rules states that disorder cancels opportunity (or probably more accurately a disordered unit cannot be on opportunity.)

In the case of Panicked Elephants (6.2.2) it states that units met by the retreating elephant take a VBU loss and suffer disorder (which automatically cancels the opportunity.) So it isn't the displacement of the unit that causes the opportunity loss but the disorder.

As I said above, I am inclined to Zippee's take on this subject but can see both sides.
avatar
Gaius Cassius
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 764
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2014-05-20
Location : Guelph, Ontario, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Zippee on Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:25 am

Nothing says that units on opportunity just stand rooted to the ground. They can be performing all kind of micro manoeuvres within the unit footprint and allowing other troops to move through their position in an orderly manner is well within that.

A unit loses opportunity, if it takes an opportunity action, is disordered or is activated to do something else. Those are the only factors that suspend the opportunity status. The rules are very clear on this.

Being interpenetrated does not disrupt the unit (except where noted) if it doesn't disorder it can't knock units off opportunity.

Displacement us not movement or an action it's an abstraction made necessary by bases.

You need to make the case for ALL interpenetration to cancel opportunity (and if it's enough to do that it should cause disorder). You cannot just pick on displacement due to base size.

avatar
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 541
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 54
Location : London, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:32 pm

Very good question and very strange that it was never raised before.
I must confess that I see both points of view make sense. Both have pros and cons.

I think anyway that is better to stay strict to the text that says that opportunity is lost only if you act or you are disordered.
avatar
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 851
Reputation : 33
Join date : 2014-05-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Tarty on Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:03 am

Ok that's pretty straight forward then
avatar
Tarty
VBU 7 h.c.
VBU 7 h.c.

Posts : 525
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : SYDNEY

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by GamesPoet on Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:00 pm

Hmmm ... interesting.

GamesPoet
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 229
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2015-05-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Empire in the sun on Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:50 pm

One must remember that base depth is completely out scale when compared to frontage and up to a point the TT displacement is a factor of this necessary oddity. Of course if we were to play with 2mm figures our frontage to depth would be more in line with reality.

Could we, for instance, say that if the displacement is more than half of the displacing units (CL) depth then the displaced unit has been forced to move with the accompanying penalty? A simple house rule.
avatar
Empire in the sun
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 17
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2015-10-14
Location : Australia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Zippee on Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:54 am

Empire in the sun wrote:
Could we, for instance, say that if the displacement is more than half of the displacing units (CL) depth then the displaced unit has been forced to move with the accompanying penalty? A simple house rule.

I'm afraid that just moves the goal post - either interpenetration is a cause to cease opportunity or not. Displacement due to Base Depth (even if halved, quartered, octoned, whatever) is irrelevant.
avatar
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 541
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 54
Location : London, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Empire in the sun on Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:07 am

I would prefer to go as written in the rules and be done with it, the above was just a thought.
Are we looking at interpenetration or displacement as I'm only considering pushed back as being a result of the scale issue regarding the depth of a base, which the rules, as written, seem to suggest.
avatar
Empire in the sun
VBU 2
VBU 2

Posts : 17
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2015-10-14
Location : Australia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Displacing Opportunity Marked troops

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum