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Oblique Movement On Roads

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Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Tarty on Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:51 pm

We had an A grade pike block doing multiple oblique moves with the road bonus on the weekend at MOAB.....is this possible ? doesn't say you can't so I allowed it.

Should troops be allowed to oblique or move sideways on roads ? I suppose is the question and get the road bonus ?
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:08 am

A grade is the key, they can oblique multiple times in any move, the road just makes the second move free before they have to take checks.

All hail the discipline, power and training of the Silvershields!

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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:37 am

The idea of getting a bonus for obliquing up a road is silly and I'd have not allowed it unless it were explicitly allowed in the rules or on the Forum.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Tarty on Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:46 am

It's another one of those "doesn't say you can't" ...things. Must say I'm leaning towards silly as well but will wait and see what others think about Smile
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:22 am

Another vote for silly I'm afraid
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Zippee on Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:06 am

It's already silly that a unit in a combat formation gets a bonus for a strip of dirt road. Allowing the bonus for oblique moves is beyond silly.

I favour removing the bonus completely or only allowing it during the first turn a bit like mounts for infantry.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:23 pm

well, free oblique move was introduced later so there is no restriction to the bonus.
If you feel that roads can lead to some gamey solution, better to avoid roads in competitions (actually never seen so far)
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:22 pm

ah - thats the problem because the road is the new terrain of choice in the UK 28mm comp meta - not because of any movement advantages but because it is a single terrain piece that can exist in both deployment zones at the same time. If the defender places a road and 2 other terrain pieces the attacker cant move either of the two others into a deployment zone, which seriously restricts his options
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:35 pm

ok, something that could be easily fixed for example excluding the road from the terrain that count in the limit of terrains in the deployment area.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:53 pm

Yup - add it to 1.8
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:33 pm

I agree with Zippee that the idea of roads providing bonus movement to units deployed for battle seems far fetched. Personally, I'd like to see that rule scratched from the game.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Tarty on Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:38 am

Nearly spat my coffee out reading your previous post Cyrus Laughing ..... roads are sounding way too gamey for my liking might take your advice Lorenzo and take them out all together.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:03 am

Removing roads totally is not a good idea. You need to be able to put a road through some other terrain types if only for historical \ scenario purposes.

Fixes are pretty easy -

1. don't count roads for terrain restrictions in deployment zones (and rivers - is it technically possible to get a river into a deployment zone?)

2. Roads do mean you can move faster so a movement bonus should be granted if you move down a road, but you cant do it in a good combat formation so leave the movement as it is but at the end of movement down a road the unit is automatically disordered and dont allow road movement into contact
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Tarty on Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:23 am

I would imagine road movement would require being in some sort of march column not sure it has any place at all in the game. I can put it to the vote I suppose.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:23 am

Everything is abstracted, we have standardised unit frontages that represent the effective area of control for any given unit, road movement hardly means sticking strictly to the road in battle formation, it's just utilising the best available path to move.

Darius smoothed the ground at Arbela (from memory) for his chariots so clearly there is something to be said for grooming even open terrain for battle formations. Utilisation of roads for enhanced standard movement seems logical but isn't something worth dying in a ditch over.

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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:17 am

Yes you need something to allow you to represent units moving through terrain on roads.

After that I'm pretty relaxed about it, to the point where I would be happy to restrict roads to just areas of other terrain.

I can see a unit using the road to get into a position faster due to the better going then shake out to combat formation, and I can see that as what the rules we have represent, but the idea of obliquing does seem to push it a bit.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Zippee on Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:49 am

I agree they need representation to cross terrain but would question if that automatically prevents disorder. Units would needs must be strung out so FP on a road in a forest are probably in disorder. That said it's all abstraction so I'm quite relaxed about it.

I don't like the double move aspect, seems very wrong to me. And I still like the idea of treating movement on the first turn along a road as a bonus similar to infantry mounts. And nothing after that.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by dadiepiombo on Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:01 am

Use the bonus only for the first turn.
As an alternative roads could allow troops to move following their direction, I mean you don't need to wheel if the road has a turn.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Zippee on Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:45 am

Yes I'd allow that on the 1st turn bonus and when keeping to roads through terrain.

Outside of that I can't see how roads assist units in combat formations. You need to be in a March column to benefit and March columns are typically extremely poor at fighting. So should be penalised if they have to fight - disorder should suffice. So if you wish to benefit from a road bonus you are subject to disorder (probably auto negated on exiting the terrain).

Roads shouldn't allow greater movement (you can argue the opposite due to ditches or verges causing disription) or help with wheeling all they do is allow March columns to negotiate terrain.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by dadiepiombo on Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:07 am

As I'm completing Baroque I want to fix how roads should be used as from Baroque the rules will be taken by Impetus 2.

1) They allow a double movement on the first turn (not first activation)
2) Troops can move following the turns of the road (no wheel required)
3) Troops can move all up to 8U, but in disorder, when moving through a road crossing a difficult terrain. No disoder if the road crosses a rough terrain.

Could work?
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Zippee on Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:41 am

1) yes

2) only when using roads to move through RT or DT or Impassable (bridges)

3) I'm not sure there should be a speed increase on roads. Although I can see the logic of march columns moving faster I think you open a whole can of worms of people wanting to use them on/off road and how to distinguish them and what size footprint, etc. I think just allowing troops to use roads to navigate through RT/DT without having to pay for wheels but suffering disorder whilst doing so should suffice. Roads outside of RT/DT are just "good going" (unless it rains when they are mud unless Roman).
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by GamesPoet on Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:14 pm

dadiepiombo wrote:ok, something that could be easily fixed for example excluding the road from the terrain that count in the limit of terrains in the deployment area.
Will this be included in Baroque and Impetus 2 as well?

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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Tarty on Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:34 pm

I don't know I'm still not convinced roads have any place to play in ancient warfare. As for roads going through rough ground and other terrain your still only dealing with a dirt track meandering through a rocky outcrop or forest not exactly a game changer.

If they must be included keep it simple is my advice and perhaps only let them effect some sort of 'arrival' bonus at deployment e.g. like a first move bonus
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by GamesPoet on Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:41 pm

Yes, I'm not convinced either, and giving oblique movement an advantage for A troops, it seems a bit too easy to shoot an arrow in to that gamey situation.

Even an "arrival" bonus isn't to my liking when we consider the number of battles where armies seemed to show up and then be deployed for a day or more before a fight started.

Anyway, I'll play it as the rule calls for, while hoping that a road as terrain counting towards the deployment zone limit is eliminated.

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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Empire in the sun on Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:02 pm

If rules were to list everything you cant do as opposed to gamers using historical knowledge, or failing that, common sense then I suspect most rules would equal the Enc. Britannica in size.
I certainly would have pointed out that the player was stretching the bounds of the plausible for the sake of gamesmanship. Do tell who Tarty Cool
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