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Oblique Movement On Roads

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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:09 pm

Empire in the sun wrote:If rules were to list everything you cant do as opposed to gamers using historical knowledge, or failing that, common sense then I suspect most rules would equal the Enc. Britannica in size.
I certainly would have pointed out that the player was stretching the bounds of the plausible for the sake of gamesmanship. Do tell who Tarty Cool

Cést moi!

And I disagree it constitutes gamesmanship, A grade troop have the ability to oblique, others do not. Is it gamesmanship to use that ability? Or is it just common sense?

Roads give a second move free of a cohesion test. So they just effectively double the rate of free movement, they are more than just tracks, they represent particularly favourable ground for movement. Think the ground Darius cleared for his chariots for example.

The terrain and our formations are not literal. We are not modelling troops who spend all day in formation and move only in formation. Our blocks represent the ground they hold and their ability to move that ground. The old days of "this is your unit frontage and each figure represents 33 men" are long gone, modern wargaming, including Impetus, is about spatial relationships and capabilitites. A grade troops represent excellence in discipline and training, they do what they are told when they are told and they have practiced moving as formations. This is reflected by their enhanced capability on the tabletop, it is a foolish player general who ignores the abilities of the blocks under his control.

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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Empire in the sun on Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:27 am

No one is arguing the ability of the troops to perform an oblique movement in the abstract form of the game. If I understand you correctly your suggesting that these 'A' chaps have the training to go from pike block to column and march (or maybe sidestep) down the road (which seems the basis of the road bonus) and then wheel back and reform a block?

Look I love the abstract style of Impetus particularly as far as movement and support is concerned but this to me is an over reach. We may as well do away with the wheeling when it comes to A grade troops.

Finally your probably making one too many assumptions on my understanding (or lack thereof) of the design philosophy behind Impetus and apparently no credit for my ability to understand spatial awareness... be that as it may to grant a road bonus for oblique movement, as many others have said earlier, does seem silly. Anyhow, and it is just my opinion, it smells gamey to me.

Oh yeah, as for the good old days, when were they? Wink
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:27 am

Empire in the sun wrote:No one is arguing the ability of the troops to perform an oblique movement in the abstract form of the game. If I understand you correctly your suggesting that these 'A' chaps have the training to go from pike block to column and march (or maybe sidestep) down the road (which seems the basis of the road bonus) and then wheel back and reform a block?

Look I love the abstract style of Impetus particularly as far as movement and support is concerned but this to me is an over reach. We may as well do away with the wheeling when it comes to A grade troops.

Finally your probably making one too many assumptions on my understanding (or lack thereof) of the design philosophy behind Impetus and apparently no credit for my ability to understand spatial awareness... be that as it may to grant a road bonus for oblique movement, as many others have said earlier, does seem silly. Anyhow, and it is just my opinion, it smells gamey to me.

Oh yeah, as for the good old days, when were they? Wink

I'd just go with "turn 45 degrees left, forward march, turn 45 degrees right" (turn to face whatever direction you're obliquing in if you prefer) and you've obliqued. Not overly difficult but does require training I'd suggest. The actual oblique movement itself probably doesn't have the front facing all the time with troops walking crossing legs like a chorus line, that would be too much for even well disciplined troops to undertake. Obliquing isn't hard, it's just practice. And it's going to be a lot easier to do on favourable terrain than even slightly challenging terrain. If anything roads would make trickier manouevres easier rather than simple ones (eg straight ahead, move) in terms of percentage difference.

Also; Featherstone.

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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:50 pm

Fred Jane nailed it over a hundred years ago when he said nothing should be allowed that is contrary to what is done in the real world \ war.

I think that would pretty much exclude obliquing a phalanx down a road
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:28 am

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:Fred Jane nailed it over a hundred years ago when he said nothing should be allowed that is contrary to what is done in the real world \ war.

I think that would pretty much exclude obliquing a phalanx down a road

Not something I'd die in a ditch over but I'd argue the exact opposite - it absolutely allows it on the basis that I've done it (not as a pikeman but as a typical squaddie).

If it's out then it's out, so be it. I'll just come up with some other tactics elsewhere to keep opponents on their toes!

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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:12 am

Roman roads, the stellar example of ancient roads, were officially codified at 8 ft wide on straight sections (they did vary from this a bit.) That means that troops marching on the road were probably only 2 or 3 wide. Great for marching from one town to another but hardly sufficient for moving on a battlefield. And remember these are the best roads of the ancient world. As Tarty said above, what we are commonly placing on our tabletops probably conform better to worn tracks and not roads. I know of no ancient/medieval battle where troops moved in road column onto the battlefield, nor moved from a deployed formation into road column and back again in battle. The whole idea of any road bonus in Impetus seems a bit far fetched to my thinking.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:38 am

GG _ You and a couple of hundred guys marched in column sideways down a road and then deployed directly into a hand to hand fight? Much older than I thought m8
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by dadiepiombo on Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:30 am

the simple way is to use roads just as visual.
Maybe a road running a flank could give a +1 on flank march to arrive. You place it maybe on your right but the opponent can then imagine when you are coming. Makes sense.

Just thoughts, anyway.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Tarty on Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:47 am

dadiepiombo wrote:the simple way is to use roads just as visual.
Maybe a road running a flank could give a +1 on flank march to arrive. You place it maybe on your right but the opponent can then imagine when you are coming. Makes sense.

Just thoughts, anyway.
I like the thought of them just being visual Wink
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:35 am

I like the thought of them being strategic :-)

I dont even mind them allowing faster movement, its just the ability to combine road movement with combat that causes a raised eyebrow
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by dadiepiombo on Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:52 pm

in Baroque I adjusted in this way.

Roads allow the crossing of Broken or Difficult Terrain as being Open Terrain.
Roads that intersect a River create a ford or a bridge. Moving through a bridge is like moving on Broken Terrain.

As per the bonus on Flank March I have to think about. In Baroque I think is not necessary and for Impetus 2 I have time to reflect.

If there is general agreement these rules can be moved to the next edition of Advanced Impetus.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Tarty on Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:09 pm

I think disorder should still apply if applicable for that troop type.

Also fighting on a road in difficult terrain and you still suffer all the effects of being in that terrain ..... might be stating the obvious here but just making sure Smile

Other than that Yes gets my one vote.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:43 am

So if crossing Difficult Terrain full move, but disorder?

Also a Unit on a road should follow the road, being perpendicular. This mean free turns if the road in not straight. Non other movement allowed to get the advantages of a road.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Tarty on Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:34 am

dadiepiombo wrote:So if crossing Difficult Terrain full move, but disorder?

Yes I think that's a reasonable compromise in my opinion Smile
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Empire in the sun on Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:12 am

Tarty wrote:
dadiepiombo wrote:So if crossing Difficult Terrain full move, but disorder?

Yes I think that's a reasonable compromise in my opinion Smile  

Logical really, +1 here.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by accard on Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:49 am

I think maybe should count as disordered for combat, but not actual disorder, as multiple moves along the road should remain a possibility - which disorder rules out. Gets a bit complicated.

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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Tarty on Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:29 am

accard wrote:multiple moves along the road should remain a possibility - which disorder rules out.
That's exactly why I suggested it to stop multiple moves through disordering terrain Smile  ..... road going up a steep hill for example doesn't stop it being a steep hill.

Just my opinion.. think I've had my say enough on this topic and let some others have theirs  Wink
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:57 am

Sorry Tarty that doesn't make any (or rather much) "in- game" sense. If a road through disordering terrain results in disorder then no advantage is gained using a road. It works for impassible terrain but not for anything else very well (I suppose it avoids the half move penalties??)

If the rules was that at the end of any movement sequence which included a road bonus resulted in disorder that makes more sense, but even then I cant see we would have achieved anything other than making roads so problematic that they are no longer relevant. Unsure of the answer
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Tarty on Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:24 pm

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:I suppose it avoids the half move penalties??
Yep that's about it pretty much. Once more comes back to how influential/effective you think roads were I suppose.... Whatever Lorenzo decides will be fine with me not a biggie in the end Smile
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:41 pm

I don't quite understand how roads make any difference to troops deployed for battle. If we were playing SYW or Napoleonic then troops could enter the table in road column and then deploy. In the periods Impetus covers I can't think of a single battle where troops used roads in the manner that is imagined in Impetus.
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:01 am

Roads offer 2 historical bonuses as I see it - they allow passage through otherwise difficult terrain, and strategically they speed up movement from one location to another.

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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:40 am

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:Roads offer 2 historical bonuses as I see it - they allow passage through otherwise difficult terrain, and strategically they speed up movement from one location to another.

I agree with the above Cyrus if we are talking about strategic movement. On the battlefield is a different matter. If we take a conservative representation in Impetus and imagine one Legion unit as a cohort of 500 men that would give an approximate deployed frontage of 80 yards. How does one propose this formation should benefit from a road or dirt track of 2 to 3 yards wide?
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Re: Oblique Movement On Roads

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:16 am

It doesnt - as I said it is strategic movement which would be something more related to flank marches.

I dont discount tactical road movement because that Cohort could form 4 files wide and happily move down a road or track faster than in a fighting formation, and using roads behind your fighting formations to move troops from one place to another on the battlefield is reasonable, but moving from road to contact is not and is a recipe for disaster. Given gamers are expert at perverting rules writing intentions I would probably prefer there be no road bonus other than allowing passage through terrain - KISS, and a possible advantage if flank marching along a road - with the restriction the FM would have to arrive on the road at least in part - but again that depends on how you view FMs
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