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Maya - new proposal

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Maya - new proposal

Post by jorneto on Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:43 pm

This proposal for Mayan lists is again divided in three but starting at a little later date than the betas. They cover the Terminal Classical, Early Post-classic and Late Post-classic periods.

Early Maya 830-950 AD
CS=Poor(0 pts)
_____Type Name___________M VBU I D VD Weapon Special Pts
2-5___FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin 20
6-20__FL Militia*____________8 4 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 14
0-1___FL Fanatics___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin Impetuous 18
0-14__FL Holcan*___________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
or up to 1/2 deployed FL Ah Canul 8 5 2 B 2 Heavy Javelin 24
2-14__S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Short bow B 7
or____S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
0-1___S Peasants (Hornet Nests) 8 2 2 C 1 Javelin 11
0-15__FL Itza warriors_______8 4 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 14
or____FL Itza veteran warriors_8 5 2 C 2 Heavy Javelin 19
0-5___S Itza scouts_________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
or____S Itza scouts_________8 2 0 C 1 Javelin 7

Middle Maya 950-1200 AD
CS=Poor(0 Pts)or CS=Average(12 Pts)
_____Type Name___________M VBU I D VD Weapon Special Pts
2-4___FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin 20
or up to 1/2 deployed FL Nobles* 8 5 3 B 3 Heavy Javelin 25
6-20__FL Militia*____________8 4 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 14
or up to 1/2 deployed FL Militia* 8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
0-1___FL Fanatics___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin Impetuous 18
0-12__FL Holcan*___________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
2-12__S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Short bow B 7
or____S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
0-1___S Peasants (Hornet Nests) 8 2 2 C 1 Javelin 11
0-4___FL Toltec Military Orders 8 5 3 B 3 Heavy Javelin 25
0-8___FL Toltec Warriors______8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
0-8___S Toltec Skirmishers____8 2 0 B 1 Sling 12
or____S Toltec Skirmishers____8 2 0 B 1 Javelin 12

Later Maya 1200-1539 AD
CS=Poor(0 Pts) or CS=Average(12 Pts)
_____Type Name___________M VBU I D VD Weapon Special Pts
1-6___FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin 20
or____FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 B 3 Heavy Javelin 25
6-24__FL Militia*____________8 4 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 14
or____FL Militia*____________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
or____FL Militia*____________8 3 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 12
0-1___FL Fanatics___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin Impetuous 18
0-16__FL Holcan*___________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
or up to 1/2 deployed FL Elite Holcan* 8 5 2 B 2 Heavy Javelin 24
2-16__S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Short bow B 7
or____S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
0-1___S Peasants (Hornet Nests) 8 2 2 C 1 Javelin 11
0-12__T Mexican Archers_____6 3 0 B 1 Short bow A 16
or up to 1/2 deployed T Mexican Archers 6 4 0 B 1 Short bow A 18

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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by Jim Webster on Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:37 am

One thing that did strike me, with Maya are we in 'Heavy Javelin' territory as opposed to just those who could be over 4VBU?

Also Maya were a notoriously regimented society, is Discipline C fair for so many of the troops?
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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by jorneto on Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:54 pm

The logic for the heavy javelin is roughly of a salvo before contact, even for VBU 4 or less troops.

The maya didn't seem particularly warlike and organised for war, at least up to the middle list. Starting with that list there is the option to have 1/2 to full numbers of B nobles and militia. And each list has a fair number of professional warriors (Holcan).


Early Maya 830-950 AD
CS=Poor(0 pts)
_____Type Name___________M VBU I D VD Weapon Special Pts
2-5___FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin 20
6-20__FL Militia*____________8 4 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 14
0-1___FL Fanatics___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin Impetuous 18
0-14__FL Holcan*___________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
2-14__S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Short bow B 7
or____S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
0-1___S Peasants (Hornet Nests) 8 2 2 C 1 Javelin 11
0-15__FL Itza warriors_______8 4 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 14
or____FL Itza veteran warriors_8 5 2 C 2 Heavy Javelin 19
0-5___S Itza scouts_________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
or____S Itza scouts_________8 2 0 C 1 Javelin 7

Notes and options:
Up to 1/2 of deployed FL can be upgraded to Ah Canul 8 5 2 B 2 Heavy Javelin for 24 pts.

Middle Maya 950-1200 AD
CS=Poor(0 Pts)or CS=Average(12 Pts)
_____Type Name___________M VBU I D VD Weapon Special Pts
2-4___FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin 20
6-20__FL Militia*____________8 4 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 14
0-1___FL Fanatics___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin Impetuous 18
0-12__FL Holcan*___________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
2-12__S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Short bow B 7
or____S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
0-1___S Peasants (Hornet Nests) 8 2 2 C 1 Javelin 11
0-4___FL Toltec Military Orders 8 5 3 B 3 Heavy Javelin 25
0-8___FL Toltec Warriors______8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
0-8___S Toltec Skirmishers____8 2 0 B 1 Sling 12
or____S Toltec Skirmishers____8 2 0 B 1 Javelin 12

Notes and options:
Up to 1/2 of deployed FL Nobles* can be upgraded to 8 5 3 B 3 Heavy Javelin for 25 pts.
Up to 1/2 of deployed FL Militia* can be upgraded to 8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin for 19 pts.

Later Maya 1200-1539 AD
CS=Poor(0 Pts) or CS=Average(12 Pts)
_____Type Name___________M VBU I D VD Weapon Special Pts
1-6___FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin 20
or____FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 B 3 Heavy Javelin 25
6-24__FL Militia*____________8 4 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 14
or____FL Militia*____________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
or____FL Militia*____________8 3 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 12
0-1___FL Fanatics___________8 5 3 C 3 Heavy Javelin Impetuous 18
0-16__FL Holcan*___________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
2-16__S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Short bow B 7
or____S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
0-1___S Peasants (Hornet Nests) 8 2 2 C 1 Javelin 11
0-12__T Mexican Archers_____6 3 0 B 1 Short bow A 16
or up to 1/2 deployed T Mexican Archers 6 4 0 B 1 Short bow A 18

Notes and options:
Up to 1/2 of deployed FL Holcan can be upgraded to Elite Holcan* 8 5 2 B 2 Heavy Javelin for 24 pts.

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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by Jim Webster on Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:07 pm

Scrub my comments about the maya being organised, it was too early in the morning for me Embarassed

But checking from the DBMM lists the comment is made there that "The typical Mayan warrior is depicted with a short thrusting spear, a club and a light shield..."

"The atlatl dart thrower is attested from the start of our period, but seems to have been of foreign origin and appears to have been limited to bodyguards and mercenaries."


So I'd suggest that perhaps the militia never have heavy javelin (or even javelin?) and that for the early period list, even the nobles don't.But Holkan, Itza and Toltecs can
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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by jorneto on Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:32 pm

You're correct. My turn to mess things...
I changed the presence of heavy javelin from rare in the early list to fairly common in the last, specially among better status or training units.

Early Maya 830-950 AD
CS=Poor(0 pts)
_____Type Name___________M VBU I D VD Weapon Special Pts
2-6___FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 C 3 17
6-20__FL Militia*____________8 4 1 C 1 11
0-1___FL Fanatics___________8 5 3 C 3 Impetuous 15
0-16__FL Holcan*___________8 4 1 B 1 16
2-16__S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Short bow B 7
or____S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
0-1___S Peasants (Hornet Nests) 8 2 2 C 1 Javelin 11
0-16__FL Itza warriors_______8 4 1 C 1 Heavy Javelin 14
or____FL Itza veteran warriors_8 5 2 C 2 Heavy Javelin 19
0-6___S Itza scouts_________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
or____S Itza scouts_________8 2 0 C 1 Javelin 7

Notes and options:
Up to 1/2 of deployed FL can be upgraded to Ah Canul 8 5 2 B 2 for 21 pts.

Middle Maya 950-1200 AD
CS=Poor(0 Pts)or CS=Average(12 Pts)
_____Type Name___________M VBU I D VD Weapon Special Pts
2-4___FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 C 3 17
6-20__FL Militia*____________8 4 1 C 1 11
0-1___FL Fanatics___________8 5 3 C 3 Impetuous 15
0-12__FL Holcan*___________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
2-12__S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Short bow B 7
or____S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
0-1___S Peasants (Hornet Nests) 8 2 2 C 1 Javelin 11
0-4___FL Toltec Military Orders 8 5 3 B 3 Heavy Javelin 25
0-8___FL Toltec Warriors______8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
0-8___S Toltec Skirmishers____8 2 0 B 1 Sling 12
or____S Toltec Skirmishers____8 2 0 B 1 Javelin 12

Notes and options:
Up to 1/2 of deployed FL Nobles* can be upgraded to 8 5 3 B 3 Heavy Javelin for 25 pts.
Up to 1/2 of deployed FL Militia* can be upgraded to 8 4 1 B 1 for 16 pts.

Later Maya 1200-1539 AD
CS=Poor(0 Pts) or CS=Average(12 Pts)
_____Type Name___________M VBU I D VD Weapon Special Pts
1-6___FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 C 3 17
or____FL Nobles*___________8 5 3 B 3 Heavy Javelin 25
6-24__FL Militia*____________8 4 1 C 1 11
or____FL Militia*____________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
or____FL Militia*____________8 3 1 C 1 9
0-1___FL Fanatics___________8 5 3 C 3 Impetuous 15
0-16__FL Holcan*___________8 4 1 B 1 Heavy Javelin 19
2-16__S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Short bow B 7
or____S Peasants___________8 2 0 C 1 Sling 7
0-1___S Peasants (Hornet Nests) 8 2 2 C 1 Javelin 11
0-12__T Mexican Archers_____6 3 0 B 1 Short bow A 16

Notes and options:
Up to 1/2 of deployed FL Holcan can be upgraded to Elite Holcan* 8 5 2 B 2 Heavy Javelin for 24 pts.
Up to 1/2 of deployed T Mexican Archers can be upgraded to 6 4 0 B 1 Short bow A for 18 pts.


Last edited by jorneto on Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by Jim Webster on Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:36 am

I think we're getting there, anybody else got any comments?

Somehow there must be a more fun way of depicting hornet nest throwers
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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by frazer on Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:24 am

hi

a small thought. impetuous foot are usually I=4. fanatics could be VBU=6 like gallic soldurii??

any thought on large units for this or other mexican lists? is one way to represent "the hordes"

cheers

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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by Jim Webster on Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:04 pm

I'm not sure I can think of any accounts where you got deep units storming forward. A lot of the combat appears to be on a more individual basis and so FL in one rank seems to capture this better.
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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by jorneto on Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:35 pm

frazer wrote:
a small thought. impetuous foot are usually I=4. fanatics could be VBU=6 like gallic soldurii??
cheers

I think VBU 6 is too high. I prefer 5-3 or 4-4.

Jim Webster wrote:I'm not sure I can think of any accounts where you got deep units storming forward. A lot of the combat appears to be on a more individual basis and so FL in one rank seems to capture this better.

also my opinion.

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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:44 am

I'm rather impressed, a beta list that does not create supermen and seems to maintain the flavour of the period army AND at least at first glance does not have any loopholes that the wranglers can use - very well done,

I have a general thought about Heavy Javelin which is we have to be a bit wary about this becoming the new auto include for FL types that throw things before melee. The standard (no missile) combat system already includes an element of throwing weapons before contact, so we now have 3 types of FL - those that skirmish with thrown javelins (usually VBU4) those that are melee orientated but with no significant missile fire, and those which close to melee and throw significant missile fire prior to contact. I'm unsure if where we are now is the direction Lorenzo intends but it does give a little more flexibility
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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by jorneto on Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:33 pm

I'm rather impressed, a beta list that does not create supermen and seems to maintain the flavour of the period army AND at least at first glance does not have any loopholes that the wranglers can use - very well done,

Of course I (as most if not all people) like to use the elites, guards and similar, but the rubbish is also fun to play with. Someone remember the discussion about the merits of the irregular D sassanid levy in Slingshot (many years ago)?

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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by Jim Webster on Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:06 pm

Absolutely, there's far more fun trying to achieve something with rubbish troops Laughing

Anybody got any ideas for hornet nest throwers which are fun but not game breaking?
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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:51 pm

Doppelsoldiers seem to have a similar function - a one shot disruption so S with impetus 3 will probably work
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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by Jim Webster on Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:58 pm

I think that makes them a bit different but given there's only one of them, they're not gamebreaking

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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by jorneto on Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:14 pm

A more radical suggestion for the hornet nest guys:

Classify them as S 2-0 with various weapons, able to shoot ONCE, being removed from the game after that. The effect on a dice throw of 1 to 5 would be disorder plus 1 hit. On a 6, disorder plus 2 hits.


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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by frazer on Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:00 pm

hi guys.

the hornet throwers i think we all agree mainly just disorder people.

so.... assume they are S vbu 2 or 3?? with various weapons. if they hit the target takes a straight forward cohesion test with no modifiers.

6 = disorder and 1 vbu loss to the target
2 to 5 = disorder to the target
1 = disorder to the hornet nest throwers!!!!!!

simple, easy and yet funny (unless your the hornets!)

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Re: Maya - new proposal

Post by jorneto on Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:39 am

Also interesting. More ideas anyone?

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