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Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

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Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by AncientWarrior on Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:51 pm

Good evening gentlemen experts Smile ,

Would like confirmation and more than likely correction that I have the following correctly calculated per the rules (original edition) and amendments (Version 1.7).

Understanding that wargames do not take place in a vacuum, let me posit the following situation:

A unit of Scythian horse archers (CL) [Move 12 VBU 4 Imp 1 Disc B VD 2] is 30Us from a unit of Roman legionaries (FP) [Move 5 VBU 6 Imp 2 Disc B VD 3 - Pilum].

The Scythians win the initiative and elect to fire a volley of arrows at the Romans.
At this range (30Us) their 4 dice for 4 VBU is reduced to 0 dice, because the fire table tells me that composite bow B at 30U has a minus 4 modifier against foot targets. OK.

Romans don’t do anything, so it’s on to next turn.

Scythians get initiative again and move 12U forward. They are now 18Us from Romans, but firing arrows would not do any good, as they are still in the range band that takes away 4 firing dice. Another die would be removed due to the unit having moved anyway. So, no firing, no Roman casualties.

New turn comes around and Scythians move just 4Us, which puts them inside the 15U range band. Now there is no modifier for the 4 firing dice save the 1 lost for moving. The dice are rolled (the arrows are loosed) and 1 hit is scored on the Romans! They have a VBU of 6, so it’s now 5. But the cohesion test number is modified to a 7 because they get a +2 for taking fire from long range. Then it’s up to an 8 for the +1 for FP taking missile fire. The cohesion test roll is made and it’s a 2. The Romans are disordered. (Page 34 of rules, left hand column, bold type under Section 6.2)

Romans don’t do anything, they don’t even bother with a rally die roll. (Those silly Romans!)

New turn sees Scythians advance to within 6Us of legionaries. Another volley of arrows is loosed. Three dice are rolled again, as 1 was lost for the move forward. This time, they miss!

OK, in next turn, Romans have rallied off the disorder marker. Scythians move 2Us to arrive at Point Blank range. Per the diagram at top of page 23 in rule book, the Romans can react. The Scythians fire their arrows, rolling 5 dice instead of 6 (the lost die is for moving) and score 2 hits. The Romans have to check. Their critical number would be 6 VBU - 2 hits = 4 but to this is added FP taking missile fire +1 = 5, and +1 for Point Blank shooting, for 6. The Romans roll a 5 and are disordered.

They react by charging the Scythian unit which cannot evade, because it already moved and fired in its turn.

In the ensuing melee, the Romans will roll 7 dice against 4 for the Scythians. No, wait, the Romans do not get impetus for charging the mounted troops, so their melee dice total is just 6.

Do I have this right? scratch

Thanks in advance. Smile

Chris

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by jorneto on Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:55 am

The firing at 14U would be +1 for taking fire at short range, but the end result would be the same.

At point blank the romans cannot react because they are disordered. See section 4.2.

But if they were not disordered (assuming the CL had failed their shooting) they could charge. The cavalry would stand as evading is only allowed to the inactive player (sec. 5.11.1). Also in the melee the romans would have a first attack of 1 die from the pilum (sec. 6.6) and then another with 6 dice from their VBU.

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:55 am

AncientWarrior wrote:
Scythians get initiative again and move 12U forward. They are now 18Us from Romans, but firing arrows would not do any good, as they are still in the range band that takes away 4 firing dice. Another die would be removed due to the unit having moved anyway. So, no firing, no Roman casualties.

Strictly true yes, but remember that you can move the unit twice (as a minimum) if it starts in good order as a discipline check is only required AFTER the second movement has been made. YOu could make that second move, close to within teh range band, roll a discipline test for disorder and go from there.

THis would also mean that in the next turn you are within the range band, if you disordered yourself you get the chance to roll that off as your first action and then fire (either in good order or disordered).

AncientWarrior wrote:
New turn comes around and Scythians move just 4Us, which puts them inside the 15U  range band. Now there is no modifier for the 4 firing dice save the 1 lost for moving. The dice are rolled (the arrows are loosed) and 1 hit is scored on the Romans! They  have a VBU of 6, so it’s now 5. But the cohesion test number is modified to a 7 because they get a +2 for taking fire from long range. Then it’s up to an 8 for the +1 for FP taking missile fire. The cohesion test roll is made and it’s a 2. The Romans are disordered. (Page 34 of rules, left hand column, bold type under Section 6.2)

Spot on.

AncientWarrior wrote:
Romans don’t do anything, they don’t even bother with a rally die roll. (Those silly Romans!)

New turn sees Scythians advance to within 6Us of legionaries. Another volley of  arrows is loosed. Three dice are rolled again, as 1 was lost for the move forward. This time, they miss!

Again, strictly speaking this is correct. Equally if you are at 14U distance you can choose to fire and pay a 1 dice penalty for the move you are going to make then charge forward and engage the Romans in melee if you roll a Charge Bonus distance of anything except a 1.


AncientWarrior wrote:
OK, in next turn, Romans have  rallied off the disorder marker. Scythians move 2Us to arrive at Point Blank range. Per the diagram at top of page 23 in rule book, the Romans can react. The Scythians fire their arrows, rolling 5 dice instead of 6 (the lost die is for moving) and score 2 hits. The Romans have  to check. Their critical number would be 6 VBU - 2 hits  = 4 but  to this is added FP taking missile fire +1 = 5, and  +1 for Point Blank shooting, for 6. The Romans roll a 5 and are disordered.

Yes.

AncientWarrior wrote:
They react by charging the Scythian unit which cannot evade, because it already moved and fired in its turn.

Couple of things:

Firstly the Romans must declare their reaction intention BEFORE they know the outcome of the shooting. As soon as you announce that you are firing they must make the call that you have triggered a ZOC reaction and what they intend to do.

Secondly you could possibly have moved the cav in a way that keeps them outside the frontal projection of the Romans, then there would be no ZOC check applicable. The ability for light cav to oblique is a very useful one in exactly this situation.

Thirdly you cannot evade because you are the ACTIVE player. Evasion is allowed only for the passive player.

AncientWarrior wrote:
In the ensuing melee, the Romans will roll 7 dice against 4 for the Scythians. No, wait, the Romans do not get impetus for charging the mounted troops, so their melee dice total is just 6.

The Romans were disordered by the firing. Thus their VBU generated dice pool of 6 is reduced to 5.

You are correct they get no impetus against mounted.

They are also charging into melee so they get to throw the Pilum as a SEPARATE dice pool of 1. No range or target modifiers, just one dice by itself.

After that melee is joined and the Romans roll their 5 dice.



AncientWarrior wrote:
Do I have this right?  scratch

Thanks in advance. Smile

Chris

Pretty close, welcome to the game!

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:58 am

jorneto wrote:

At point blank the romans cannot react because they are disordered. See section 4.2.

But if they were not disordered (assuming the CL had failed their shooting) they could charge. The cavalry would stand as evading is only allowed to the inactive player (sec. 5.11.1). Also in the melee the romans would have a first attack of 1 die from the pilum (sec. 6.6) and then another with 6 dice from their VBU.

Not quite mate, the Romans had rolled off the previous disorder in their turn, the Scythians then came within 5U in the subsequent turn and elected to shoot thus triggering the reaction, the Scythians fired and disordered the Romans but that does not prevent the reaction from completing (assuming the Romans had called the charge when the Scythians entered their ZoC before shooting).

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by AncientWarrior on Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:25 pm

Thanks very much for the rapid and informative replies. I have a clarifying question:


Again, strictly speaking this is correct. Equally if you are at 14U distance you can choose to fire and pay a 1 dice penalty for the move you are going to make then charge forward and engage the Romans in melee if you roll a Charge Bonus distance of anything except a 1.

So, even if firing is done BEFORE movement, a 1 die penalty is assessed on the firing unit?

My error in forgetting about the pilum rule - whoops.

Will have to re-read the reaction section again, was not aware of the declaration part - simply thought the reacting unit had a number of options.

Thanks again.

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:07 pm

I think Grancius is incorrect about one element of the reaction. A reacting player does not have to declare in  advance whether his unit will charge as a response to the missile fire until after the missile fire effect is calculated. The declaration comes after the missile fire.

1. Side A declares fire and rolls dice.
2. Side B calculates any fire results.
3. Side B decides whether to charge Side A.


In the case of the reacting unit able to respond with missile fire or by charging the player does need to declare in advance whether the response is missile fire since this calculation is done simultaneously.  

1. Side A declares fire.
2. Side B declares whether the response is fire.
3. Side A rolls dice and Side B does so at the same time if the response is fire.
4. Side B (and perhaps Side A) determine results of fire.
5. Side B decides whether to charge only if it did not react with fire.
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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by stuuk on Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:34 pm

ancientwarrior we have discovered that CL are good, very good in fact due to their ability to both oblique and fire in any direction.

So get to 15U and don't be in front of the target.
Even better do so with two of you, and shoot him to bits.

light horse in impetus are to my current understanding of the rules, extremely scary. Cav can't really catch them but they can get really hurt by them.

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:11 am

Gaius Cassius wrote:I think Grancius is incorrect about one element of the reaction. A reacting player does not have to declare in  advance whether his unit will charge as a response to the missile fire until after the missile fire effect is calculated. The declaration comes after the missile fire.

1. Side A declares fire and rolls dice.
2. Side B calculates any fire results.
3. Side B decides whether to charge Side A.

Would you allow Side B to charge if they were disordered by the missile fire?

Literally speaking you would then have a disordered unit with no ZoC making a ZoC reaction. If you play that the answer is "No, they cannot charge as they have become disordered and thus cannot react" I would accept that as being logically consistent.

If not I would oppose that interpretation.

Gaius Cassius wrote:
In the case of the reacting unit able to respond with missile fire or by charging the player does need to declare in advance whether the response is missile fire since this calculation is done simultaneously.  

1. Side A declares fire.
2. Side B declares whether the response is fire.
3. Side A rolls dice and Side B does so at the same time if the response is fire.
4. Side B (and perhaps Side A) determine results of fire.
5. Side B decides whether to charge only if it did not react with fire.

Equally as you note that in the event a firing reaction is triggered the firing occurs simultaneously, that would tend to indicate that reactions must be stated before dice are rolled as that is the point of decision.

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:21 am

stuuk wrote:ancientwarrior we have discovered that CL are good, very good in fact due to their ability to both oblique and fire in any direction

So get to 15U and don't be in front of the target.
Even better do so with two of you, and shoot him to bits.

light horse in impetus are to my current understanding of the rules, extremely scary. Cav can't really catch them but they can get really hurt by them.

Some, not all, get 360 degree firing. Crossbows fire to the front 45 degree arc only (p10 under Light Cav), Light Cav with crossbows, handgund or harquebus have a 45 degree firing arc (p34 Firing Limitations.

Also note that Impetus doesn't have the corner to corner range that many other systems utilise, you must measure from the centre of the firing side (be that the front or if allowed to shoot 360 degrees any other side) to the middle of the closest edge of the target.

Where Light Cav get really scary is when they move up to your flank, shoot at point blank, hurt you, then the next lot interpenetrate them to take the same position, shoot you, hurt you and etc etc etc. The so called cab rank of death. Neatly brings historical hit and run type tactics into play.

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:16 am

GG, look at the end of 4.2 where it states the following,

"If the Unit is reacting to enemies that have entered the Zone of Control to fire, the reaction allowed by the status of Opportunity takes place after enemy fire unless there is an exchange of fire, where firing is simultaneous."

What do you make of this wording? The reaction occurs after fire when melee is the intention. On the other hand, 4.1.3 seems to suggest that the reacting player states his intention before any results are determined so you may be correct in your understanding. I've looked through the Old Forum to see if I could find any guidance on this but no luck so far. I hope these kinds of issues are cleaned up in Impetus 2.
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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:30 am

Yep, so if the unit enters the ZoC and triggers a reaction by firing then the firing is simultaneous.

If the firing is due to being on Opportunity then the ZoC really doesn't matter does it as the Unit on Opportunity can fire at any point it desires? I suspect this is a translation issue.

If the intention is melee then there would generally not be a ZoC reaction from the target Unit as the intruder would be on a vector to impact, equally if is passes through the ZoC of a covering unit on its way to melee a different Unit then presumably the Unit whose ZoC has been intruded must call that they are shooting before the melee dice are rolled as the outcome of the shooting may very well affect the dice pool.

I agree that the wording in Impetus 2 needs to be tighter in this regard, the way we usually play is that the passive player has a reasonable time to claim the reaction (ie you can't race through his ZoC, roll your dice and then say "too slow, you snooze you lose") but he must do so before any dice are rolled by the moving unit.

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:45 am

Remember, we are talking about a reaction due to enemy fire. It is the reaction that creates the Opportunity. At the time of the reaction the targeted unit is place on a kind of temporary Opportunity (it isn't true Opportunity because if the attacked unit decides not to react it doesn't get to stay on Opportunity.)

The question then becomes when does the reacting unit  have to declare its response. 4.1.3 seems to suggest that it would occur when the attacking unit declares missile fire within the ZOC. On the other hand, until the attacking unit actually fires there is no basis for a reaction. I am open to any reasonable interpretation. To be honest, we've been playing it this way so long I can't remember how we came to this understanding.
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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:42 am

Totally agree. The rule (from memory) states that the reaction can be called before the next Unit activation which, taken literally (as if wargamers ever do that...), means it can be claimed after the initial firing, but the simultaneous firing indicates it should be done before the initial dice are rolled.

My view is that I am against seeing a result from an action before calling a reaction , equally it's not something to die in a ditch over.

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by stuuk on Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:45 pm

RE: the 'cab rank of death' it would mean that the light horse doing the inter-penetrating really cannot evade anywhere (I think?) so although a way to boost firepower, I could see it getting two units of CL killed.

Ah I see in your description you said 'in the flank' so yeah, if they can't be charged that would be bad!

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by AncientWarrior on Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:34 pm

Thanks to all for reading and remarking. Appreciated! Smile

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Re: Horse Archers (CL) versus Legionaries (FP)

Post by starkadder on Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:05 am

stuuk wrote:Ah I see in your description you said 'in the flank' so yeah, if they can't be charged that would be bad!

It can be. Very bad.

Unless you are me and running Seljuqs. I don't think I have ever succeeded in winning a battle with all their potential firepower. It's the mystery of Impetus.
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