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A few questions from a slightly experienced player

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A few questions from a slightly experienced player

Post by AncientWarrior on Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:36 pm

Well . . . I wouldn’t go that far. Neutral

Regarding counter-charges:
On page 27 of the rules (lower right hand side), it states: “In order to be able to Counter-charge, the enemy unit must begin the charge from within the corridor described by the continuation of the short sides of the charged unit.”

I gather that the second to last word should be “charging” instead of charged?

Here is where a diagram would have been helpful - at least to me.

Looking at the Voluntary Interpenetration diagram on the top of 29, the NO side: Let us imagine the light blue CL unit marked B is actually a CM unit and it is going to charge the red CM unit identified as C. The light blue unit wheels slightly and then makes a move (it passes the discipline test so it is not marked disordered).

If I project lines from the short sides of the light blue unit, one will intersect with the red unit, just barely though. So, can the red unit counter-charge, assuming that it passes its discipline test?

Regarding voluntary interpenetration:
In a current scenario, some heavy foot on the far right flank were held up by friendly light infantry engaged with enemy light infantry in melee.

Are the heavy infantry permitted to support in some way, or perhaps assume the lead role in the melee? With another set of rules (yes, I know, I shouldn’t mix) the heavy infantry can just disperse both friends and enemy with a simple forward move.


Pursuit moves:
I may have asked this before and forgotten (sorry), but can the winners of a melee round pursue and start another melee if they are not the active side?

Seems a bit unusual that the back and forth or flow of a melee would be interrupted by which side was active or not. Doesn’t being contacted and engaged in close combat with an enemy formation make the attacked unit “active” in some sense?


Thanks for your collective expertise on these topics. Smile

Chris

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Re: A few questions from a slightly experienced player

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:31 am

AncientWarrior wrote:

Regarding counter-charges:
On page 27 of the rules (lower right hand side), it states: “In order to be able to Counter-charge, the enemy unit must begin the charge from within the corridor described by the continuation of the short sides of the charged unit.”

I gather that the second to last word should be “charging” instead of charged?

It is slightly tortured English so think of it this way

In order to be able to countercharge, the ACTIVE unit must begin the charge from within the corridor described by the continuation of the short sides of the PASSIVE (Charged) unit.

ie to countercharge you must be charged through your frontal zone.


AncientWarrior wrote:
Regarding voluntary interpenetration:
In a current scenario, some heavy foot on the far right flank were held up by friendly light infantry engaged with enemy light infantry in melee.

Are the heavy infantry permitted to support in some way, or perhaps assume the lead role in the melee? With another set of rules (yes, I know, I shouldn’t mix) the heavy infantry can just disperse both friends and enemy with a simple forward move.

There is no interpenetration of units in melee.

If the heavies can make contact with the enemy unit by manoeuvring around their own troops then it becomes a standard melee with multiple units, the FP may become the main, they may act as support, depending on which unit gets the greatest frontal coverage with the enemy.

AncientWarrior wrote:
Pursuit moves:
I may have asked this before and forgotten (sorry), but can the winners of  a melee round pursue and start another melee if they are not the active side?

Absolutely.

And if they haven't taken a VBU loss they get Impetus as well.

One of the bits of Impetus I very much like.

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Re: A few questions from a slightly experienced player

Post by AncientWarrior on Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:19 pm

GG -

Thank you.

ie to countercharge you must be charged through your frontal zone.
So, like the firing priority diagram, the majority of your countercharging unit could be outside of this zone? Seems slightly problematic given the potential angles. Again, a diagram might be helpful to those of us who are visual learners.

There is no interpenetration of units in melee. OK, thanks. As I mentioned, thinking about another  set of rules  that allows heavies to scatter lights (both friendly and enemy). At least I played this portion correctly.  Surprised

regarding the melee round process - OK and whew . . . sometimes this is locally decisive and sometimes, contests seem to be never-ending. Cavalry units on their last legs (no pun intended) and disordered to boot, just  roll 1 die so there's a 1 in 6 chance of getting that damage point.

Thanks again.

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Re: A few questions from a slightly experienced player

Post by Granicus Gaugamela on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:49 pm

AncientWarrior wrote:GG -

Thank you.

ie to countercharge you must be charged through your frontal zone.
So, like the firing priority diagram, the majority of your countercharging unit could be outside of this zone? Seems slightly problematic given the potential angles. Again, a diagram might be helpful to those of us who are visual learners.

Yes. Given the charge is a straight line move in Impetus (no wheeling or obliquing into combat) if any part, no matter how small, starts the Charge in your frontal zone then you can countercharge provided you are not disordered and you pass a Discipline test.


AncientWarrior wrote:
There is no interpenetration of units in melee. OK, thanks. As I mentioned, thinking about another  set of rules  that allows heavies to scatter lights (both friendly and enemy). At least I played this portion correctly.  Surprised

If you had fun then you played it right. Competitions require a stricter adherence to rules as written, friendly games there's plenty of scope for house rules provided both players are happy.

AncientWarrior wrote:
regarding the melee round process - OK and whew . . . sometimes this is locally decisive and sometimes, contests seem to be never-ending. Cavalry units on their last legs (no pun intended) and disordered to boot, just  roll 1 die so there's a 1 in 6 chance of getting that damage point.

Thanks again.

Spot on. The first couple of games I ever played were Italian Wars with elite pike blocks smashing into each other and we pushed each other about for several phases of melee. EMIRS had a house rule that if you lost 3 consecutive phases in one turn then you were routed in order to try and overcome that issue and make larger battles playable in a 3-4 hour evening club game.

With more experience I wouldn't recommend that at all, it disturbs the game balance far too greatly.

Have fun and may your Discipline tests all roll 1s!

Unless we play. In that case you gets 4 for every dice roll. Every single one...

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Re: A few questions from a slightly experienced player

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:30 pm

AncientWarrior wrote:
Regarding counter-charges:
On page 27 of the rules (lower right hand side), it states: “In order to be able to Counter-charge, the enemy unit must begin the charge from within the corridor described by the continuation of the short sides of the charged unit.”

I gather that the second to last word should be “charging” instead of charged?

No, the counter charge is activated based on the relationship of the charging unit to the charged unit so the word choice is correct. Basically if the unit charging starts within the extend ZOC of the charged unit the charged unit can counter charge. As an aside, we rarely see counter-charging except when the unit is on opportunity.


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Re: A few questions from a slightly experienced player

Post by AncientWarrior on Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:19 pm

GG -

Thanks again for feedback.

If you had fun then you played it right. Now there's a topic for a wargaming magazine column or at least an informal survey. Wonder if we might suggest the reverse - "If you play it right, then you have fun"?

The house rule for the blocks of Italian pike sounds interesting . . .

Have fun and may your Discipline tests all roll 1s!

Unless we play. In that case you gets 4 for every dice roll. Every single one...
Thanks for the first wish and as for the second, if we do play, my cohesion test dice are six-sided but have 1s on every side. My combat dice are six-sided and have 6s on each side. Razz

Ending with yet another question - perhaps you can help on this one as well?

In a current battle, I have heavy infantry attacking enemy heavy infantry on a gentle hill. The defenders are in a line, grouped together. If, in the course of an attack up the hill, the melee is a tie (1 kill and disordered on both sides), do the supporting units also become disordered?

I read the pertinent section of the rules again and could only find reference to main units being pushed back with loss and their supports having to roll for retreat distance and being automatically disordered.

Side note: Still struggle with the main unit / support unit distinction, as in the above example, I have had support units becoming main units due to location and next activated unit attacking. Rules states, however, that support units cannot be main units. Unless, the resolution of one melee and start of another melee (even involving the same defending units) wipes the slate clean and allows a restart of the main/support unit record.

Beginning to think that I've bitten off more than I can chew with this particular scenario . . . Embarassed Ah well, chest la guerre-gaming (don't know the French for "game").

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Re: A few questions from a slightly experienced player

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:30 pm

Support units only suffer disorder if forced to retreat because the main unit lost the melee.

It is not possible for support units in melee to become main units in melee in the same activation (unless there is pursuit etc.) but it is possible for main units to become support units. Melees are activated based on the main unit and so it is possible for a main unit in one melee to win and be freed up to become the support unit in another melee.
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Re: A few questions from a slightly experienced player

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:30 pm

I should add that a support unit on the flank could become the main unit in the same activation but this is the exception to the rule and it involves the same melee.
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Re: A few questions from a slightly experienced player

Post by AncientWarrior on Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:13 pm

Thanks GC, though I am tempted to remark that this sounds rather like Chico and Groucho going over the legalese of a contract in one of those classic comedies from the 1930s.

In all seriousness, and I imagine that I'm speaking for myself, this is where a diagram or two or three and a procedural explanation would be beneficial.


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