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Mounted Infantry Charging

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Mounted Infantry Charging

Post by Gaius Cassius on Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:25 pm

An interesting topic has come up inadvertently on the Forum that has gotten my attention. In a few lists infantry units are permitted to make a 1st turn move as mounted. The purpose of this is to gain some extra movement and get a bit of a jump on the opposition.

What happens however if the player with the mounted infantry desires to melee with an opponent? It is technically possible for mounted infantry to make a series of moves and charge into the enemy. Or more likely an aggressive opponent moves forward CL/CM and is now within a move or two of the mounted infantry as it activates. Can the mounted infantry charge any enemy unit? If the answer is yes, does fight as mounted or is it considered dismounted?

The rules are a bit vague on how to handle this because I suspect Lorenzo didn't imagine that someone would risk his mounted infantry in this manner. But it can happen (and does happen if I've read between the lines correctly.)

So there are two questions.
1. What does Impetus say about this?
2. What should Impetus say about this?

Opinions are most appreciated but I'd appreciate you speaking to 1 before 2.

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Re: Mounted Infantry Charging

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:49 pm

I'm pretty sure Lorenzo cleared this up on the old forum. Basically Mounted infantry only fight as infantry, and the whole move has to be either mounted or on foot, so they cant move as mounted and enter combat. If they are contacted by the enemy they automatically dismount and fight as foot. If they are shot at when mounted they count as mounted.
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Re: Mounted Infantry Charging

Post by starkadder on Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:53 pm

Gaius.

I don't believe this is a huge issue but it does deserve proper clarification.

So what does Impetus say?

From the core rules:


2.6.4. 
A Unit (or Group) on Opportunity can react when the enemy is activated, and can [.....] Charge an Enemy Unit on that Unit's activation phase (opportunity charge) when the required conditions apply.

5.1.2.
Some troops can dismount if this is indicated in their Army list. You must pass a Discipline Test that is performed Unit by Unit. Failure leads to Disorder. You cannot move during the same turn that you dismount.

The Anglo-Danish list (Bk2, p24):
One or more units of Huscarls or Select Fyrd can be mounted [.....] The horses allow them to move 10U per phase in the first activation. In that case, they are considered to be mounted for all effects/modifiers until the activation is completed. 
____________

So what should Impetus say?

"All effects/modifiers" - you take the good with the bad. If you wish to use mounted infantry then they are affected by 5.12, dismount and take a discipline test. They stop where they dismount - disordered or not. In the Anglo-Danish case, they are FP not some unclassified cavalry. 

It is my belief that they cannot charge.

What would they charge as if they did? 10U implies CM, what factors, FP implies something else again. It just does not work.

If there is resistance to that suggestion, an alternative is to consider mounted infantry in that first activation (and it is only the first activation) to be Disordered. The Disorder auto-clears upon dismount (no test).
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Re: Mounted Infantry Charging

Post by Tarty on Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:54 am

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:I'm pretty sure Lorenzo cleared this up on the old forum. Basically Mounted infantry only fight as infantry, and the whole move has to be either mounted or on foot, so they cant move as mounted and enter combat. If they are contacted by the enemy they automatically dismount and fight as foot. If they are shot at when mounted they count as mounted.

Yes I remember this talked about on the old forum also Cyrus....do you think I could find it though ? Rolling Eyes

'so they cant move as mounted and enter combat' -  this is the bit that interests me the most here... I think your right.

Personally I'd also like to see some sort of penalty for mounted infantry if contacted while mounted (e.g opportunity charged ) Manoeuvring on horse back so close to the enemy should carry some risks for these chaps.
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Re: Mounted Infantry Charging

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:31 am

I am having vague feelings of rememberance as you describe it Cyrus from the Old Forum. These are the kinds of small details that need to be included in Impetus 2 (and preferably AI).
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Re: Mounted Infantry Charging

Post by starkadder on Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:08 am

I'd be happy with that interpretation, Cyrus.

In relation to this discussion, would it be useful to have a separate "Amendments and Clarifications" area for AI with a permalink at the top to the latest A&Cs but also showing the various proposals for change? It would save the inevitable forensic searches for previous stuff.
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Re: Mounted Infantry Charging

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:02 pm

I will open a thread for AI proposal of clarifications so I will not miss.

Anyway I cannot remember what I said in the old forum. Mounted advanteage ends at the end of the movement (or if chared) so in case they would not fight in melee as mounted.
But could then they use this special movement for a charge. I would say no.
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Re: Mounted Infantry Charging

Post by Bluewillow on Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:24 pm

I always thought if a unit that was mounted infantry could only move once as mounted infantry 10U then dismount, not two or three ( after passing discipline tests) and they cannot fight mounted, ie unapposed combat if caught mounted.
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Re: Mounted Infantry Charging

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:42 am

starkadder wrote:

From the core rules:


2.6.4. 
A Unit (or Group) on Opportunity can react when the enemy is activated, and can [.....] Charge an Enemy Unit on that Unit's activation phase (opportunity charge) when the required conditions apply.

5.1.2.
Some troops can dismount if this is indicated in their Army list. You must pass a Discipline Test that is performed Unit by Unit. Failure leads to Disorder. You cannot move during the same turn that you dismount.

The Anglo-Danish list (Bk2, p24):
One or more units of Huscarls or Select Fyrd can be mounted [.....] The horses allow them to move 10U per phase in the first activation. In that case, they are considered to be mounted for all effects/modifiers until the activation is completed. 
____________


We need to be a bit careful with some of these - the rule 5.1.2 doesnt apply to mounted infantry, that's there for some units that can fight mounted or dismounted such as some medieval knights or some Mongols who can dismount as T.

However the Huscarl quote is important as it does clarify that Mounted Infantry can make multiple moves
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Re: Mounted Infantry Charging

Post by starkadder on Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:43 am

I only cited 5.1.2 as a possible option as it is one of the few things pertinent to the concept. 

People keep telling me that 5.1.2 only applies to certain types. I don't see the difference as the Anglo-Danish list clearly makes reference to dismounting and 5.1.2 only refers to "troops" and subject to all effects and modifiers. It also makes it clear that you can't move after dismount and that's fair enough. 

I would have thought that mounted infantry would be more likely to experience disorder but that's just me.
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