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Vapnartak York Feb 2018- format options?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:26 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Hi everyone

I was pondering the options for the York competition and wondered …

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BI2 tournament - 25 March 2017

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first large game... many many questions :)

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first large game... many many questions :)

Post by seldon on Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:49 am

Ok, we really need some help here...



Ok, we played a large game the other day and some questions came, up. In general we like using the rules for large games because we find it fun to have many units on the table..

1) If a model has heavy armor and shield, I understand this will force the enemy to re-roll two hits, correct ?
2) We only re-roll dice once, correct ? So if a model rolls for whatever reason only 2D6 in combat, has a better weapon but is fighting against a model with heavy armor and shield with C=5, and rolls a 1 and a 5. He has to re-roll the 5 due to the heavy armor or shield ( the second hit re-roll is wasted ) and he gets to re-roll the 1 due to better weapon, correct ?
3) When activating models individually does combat happen as part of the model’s activation ? In other words, if three models will charge a single model, do they
a) go one by one and fight,

Or b)  do they all charge ( they are not a group ) and after that I do combat with one model and two supporting ?

If a) supports ( other than spear second rank ) would only come in when doing group charge, right ?
4) Shieldwall says I can only move once per phase, but is that one time after I move shield wall ? For example could I move forward twice and use my last action to form shield wall and thus on the next turn be limited to one move per phase ?
5) In group charge two mounted models charge a spear model, should both roll for unseated ?
6) Can a shaken foot model unseat a mounted model ?
7) Can shaken models provide support ( ie second rank with spear )
Cool If a mounted model gets unseated, and hence gets shaken, does he still get to attack, though now as shaken model ?
9) What happens if a model is shaken and gets a second shaken result ?
10) Household says also gets the mercenary or veteran advantage, but that advantage is re-rolls on shooting, which are already included in Household, so why the redundancy, what do they get from mercenary that they don’t already get from household ?
11) Men-at-Arms are LV2.. but a unit of MAA would not be considered a group unless they have a leader LV3 with them, right ? Since MAA cannot be leaders to other MAA, correct ?
12) When calculating MV for units of MAA, I count each MAA as 2 points, right ? and then when I lose one I discount 2 points, correct ?
Ok this is what I have from now, when I get a few more I’ll keep posting

Thanks
Francisco

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Re: first large game... many many questions :)

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:10 am

Hi Francisco,
happy you tried L&S in the biggest format.
I'm pretty busy with the release of Baroque and the questions are many, so if you don't mind I will answer few at time.

1) Are you talking about shooting or melee?
I think there is some confusion here. Heavy armour and shield give some protection on shooting. While they don't count in melee as the C value is what counts. A figure with C=5 will get an hit for every 5+ rolled by the enemy and usually you are dead when you get 2 hits more than you produce against the enemy. Lethal weapons (usually 2 hand weapons) can reduce the difference to 1.

Some weapons then are faster than others and in that case they can re-roll a die to hit.
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Re: first large game... many many questions :)

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:17 am

3) you cancharge one by one or as a group.
If you charge one by one, you activate a figure to move in contact. Melee is automatic, no need to spend other APs. After the melee the 2 opponents will not end still in contact. In case of draw they must separate. So if you charge with another figure it will be another melee.

If you charge as a Group (and you need a leader in the group of course) 3 figures will fight against 1. Well one figure with the help of other 2 (2 more dice, one for each supporter)
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Re: first large game... many many questions :)

Post by seldon on Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:46 pm

Yes, we did do a large game... we had about 6 units per side on the table... It was fun but it seemed too big for the system as we had too many shakens and not enough dead in close combat so we couldn't finish during our planned play time. We have played large games of S&R but those go faster since you kill just by winning in CC, while here you need to win by two hits ( except lethal weapons ).

on answer 3, perfectly understood.

on answer 1. The rules in english state both for shield and heavy armor that in melee they force the opponent to re-roll hits.

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Re: first large game... many many questions :)

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:24 pm

question 1) Yes they allow the re-roll but only 1 re-roll if you already have the shield. Yes it is to clear in the text.

In the new version of the rules a figure that is already shaken and get another shaken become exhausted. An exhausted figure reduce his C by one (and still get the minus 1 die for beeing shake).
This speeds the melees. You can give a try.

4) Yes you can. Once you have the SW you are slower

5) No, only the main figure, the supporting figure just add 1 die

6) No. A shake figure can only have a melee if charged but with 1 less

7) No can't support. If the horseman is unseated (and shaken) cannot complete his charge
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Re: first large game... many many questions :)

Post by seldon on Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:45 am

Ok.. so today we did another game..

These are some house rules we implemented so that we could play with large games of about 4-6 units per side without bogging down.

1) Activation:
When playing a large game, 5-6 units per side ( yet one player per side ) .. it is very cumbersome to roll all sets of dice together... So we thought of an alternative. Each player nominates a unit and then rolls the initiative dice.. they execute the actions for each unit, in order of initiative and when the units nominated have finished, again players nominate another set of units.. and so it goes till you activated all unit.
The one thing that needs to be resolved is hot to use command groups. Commanders can give iniative dice and group orders.. Well, initiative dice are assigned at the start of the turn before any unit gets nominated.
Group orders on the other hand are only given by the command group when the command group is activated. When activated the commander can spend action points to give orders to groups within 8cm and we simply mark those with at token. When the group that got the order finally gets to activate they will be able to use those group orders without having to spend the equivalent action points from their own initiative roll ( usually saving about half the points needed for group orders )

This system worked fantastically well and I would certainly recommend it for 1x1 large games. We've been looking for a small units game, SAGA style, but more wargamy less boardgamy ( which is what saga is a bit with the battleboards ). This system with these mechanics for large games really provides an excellent small unit game...


2) When playing these large games the combat can take a but long with the repeated shaken results. Rather than doing C a -1 when shaken we opted to grant any figure attacking a shaken model the "lethal" characteristic, in a way what this does is that if a model gets a second shaken result in hand to hand they get taken out. This greatly increased the speed of combat resolution among units

3) Armor was a problem since we didn't like having the same effect in close combat from shield all the way to plate armor and shield, so we opted to force the player with less armor ( if any ) the requirement to re-roll one hit. This system seemed consistent with the better weapon system and really worked well.
ie. you have better weapon, re-roll a missed die, you have better armor, opponent re-rolls a hit results. Now it does make sense to have more armor, even for close combat !

4) and here we had doubts.. As the rules are written it looks like skirmishers can even evade when charged by individual models !
The rules mention that when you evade you affect that by a D6 but only on a roll of 1 it cuts your movment short.
So we had a unit of vikings trying to get some silly skirmish archers and they could never catch them.. they would just run away. Not being able to kill the skirmishers, with the fast reload of the bow quickly made them dominate the game !

We decided to change that by saying that skirmishers can only evade charge groups. That means that effectively combat troops had to get dispersed and get individual orders to attack skirmishers. Of course it is still tough to get them, they can do opp fire, and you need to spend more orders to attack them individually but at least they are not this indestructible long range weapon.

Of course you could get them with cav or trap them with two units but it seems off to require so much effort to take them out. This is a skirmish action after all and one on one it shouldn't be easy for the skirmisher to run away ! On the other hand group to group yes since while the charging group tries to maintain some coherency the skrimishers just disperse. 

Do you guys really allow the skirmishers to evade all the time with 0 penalty and maybe the only option being if they start within 5cm and they roll a 1 on the evation die ... seems that skirmishers will simply dominate the game ... are we doing something wrong ?

With these rules the game worked fantastically well.. We had 5-6 units per side, finished the game within a period of 3 hours when the viking army broke by reaching the AMV ...

Another question.. Dodging a cavalry model charge. A cavalry guy charges a foot guy.. he dodges.. how much further does the cav model go and what does he do after ?
We rules that once you charged that was your last action.. and if dodge the cav model could complete their move up to the total for that move amount for that action, in straight line ( model owners choice how far he goes ).

Thoughts ?

Can't wait to get the fantasy rules.. my wargods of Aegyptus armies are waiting...





Francisco

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Re: first large game... many many questions :)

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