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Has anyone tried a different U measure in 15mm?

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Has anyone tried a different U measure in 15mm?

Post by Sun of York on Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:19 am

My first Impetus games were using 28mm and then 1/72nd scale figures with U=1 inch.

As I am mainly a 15mm player that's the scale I have been using. However I have been finding U=1cm to be rather fiddly. If you were to apply the same ratio of U to frontage then for 15mm U would be about 17mm.

I was wondering if anyone had tried using different U measurements in 15mm?
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Re: Has anyone tried a different U measure in 15mm?

Post by Sun of York on Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:39 am

Preamble

My first game of Impetus was using 25mm figures and U equals 1 inch. My second game was using 1/72nd scale figures and U equals 1 inch. My third game was using 15mm figures (my preferred scale, or rather the scale of the overwhelming majority of my ancient figures and those of the people I regularly game with) and U equals a piddly 1 centimetre.

In the handling and positioning of troops on the battlefield it is easy to “bump” them by a cm and hard to tell this has happened. It also means that moves seem to be less definitive (think bold, meaningful, determined or just clear).

When I looked at the ratio of frontage of the unit to the distance it could move I became a little concerned. At this point I should state that I have a previously played a lot of DBA and was always snarky about the variation in a 25mm game of DBA versus a 15mm game (there were moves you could do in 25mm that couldn’t be done in 15mm, closing the gate being the main one).

On top of that I was just finding U equal to 1cm was annoyingly fiddly.

What to do?

Unit Frontage to U ratio

For 25mm, with a frontage of 120mm per unit, U equals 1 inch or 25.4mm, ratio 1:0.212.

For 15mm, with a frontage of 80mm per unit, U equals 1cm or 10mm, ratio 1:0.125.

Applying the same ratio as for 25mm scale to the 15mm scale gives a value of U equals 17mm.

The Battlefield (1.2.1)

Table Size

A standard sized table is 6 foot by 4 foot (180x120cm), well at least for FoG it is. The Advanced Impetus Tournament Rules seem to favour this sized table for 15mm Tournaments (although 300 and 350 point games can use 120x90cm or 120x120cm) and for 300 point 25mm Tournaments.

Battlefield Size 300 Points

Advised minimum battlefield size for 25mm, 300 points is 180x120cm or 71x47U

Advised minimum battlefield size for 15mm, 300 points is 120x90cm or 120x90U

Battlefield Size 500 Points

Advised minimum battlefield size for 25mm, 500 points is 240x180cm or 94x71U

Advised minimum battlefield size for 15mm, 500 points is 180x120cm or 180x120U

Battlefield Size U Equals 17mm

For 300 points minimum battlefield size of 120x90cm is 71x53U

For 500 points the minimum battlefield size of 180x120cm is 106x71U

Deployment (3.4)

The Impetus rules give this in terms of U with each command being deployed at least 30U from the centre line and at least 12U from the side edge except for 300 point 25mm games when the deployment from the centre line is reduced to 12U.

Tournament Games Deployment

This is changed for tournament games where armies can be deployed at least 20U from the centre line for a 6x4 table and on a smaller table 15U from the centre line or 25U from the baseline.

What would that mean for a 15mm game played with U equals 17mm on a 6x4 table? The depth of the table in U is 71U. With a 20U deployment from the centreline that would leave just over 15U for the depth of each armies’ deployment zone.

Unit Depth

The deepest unit is a triple pike block at 9cm (or just over 5U) so that should present no problems with U equals 17mm on a 6x4 table.

Conclusion

So U=17mm for 15mm games should work on a 180x120cm table with deployment 20U from the centre line.

The proof will be a game.
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Re: Has anyone tried a different U measure in 15mm?

Post by Zippee on Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:22 am

1U = 17mm is a very fiddly measurement or at least will require dedicated measurement sticks.

I think everyone is aware that there is a significant difference between the 15mm and 25mm game.

Table size to game size and scale is also something that is skewed as you point out.

That said I've never had any problem playing with 1U = 1cm and would consider that the default and normal setting not 1U=1" so I reject the premise of your ratio calculation, for me it is the 25mm game that should change, if there was to be a change Smile

However I suspect all this will change with Impetus II where with luck we'll move to a movement system where the U is directly proportional to the base width as it is in Baroque.

Although it has to be said that even in Baroque there is frustratingly little precision in the estimation of deployment space and table size. I'd like that tightened up in Impetus II.
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Re: Has anyone tried a different U measure in 15mm?

Post by Sun of York on Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:11 am

Thanks Zippee.  I have made measuring sticks for U17.  Easy with WORD and a laminator. There is a pic on my blog (probably the most boring photo on my whole blog).  I've also put this post, and your comment, on my blog

Impetus II reminds me of "The next release..."  promises I used to hear from software sales people.  :-)
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Re: Has anyone tried a different U measure in 15mm?

Post by Zippee on Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:15 am

No problem - I also use sticks for 1U=1cm so I agree it's not much more faff but I know others who would instantly walk away at the necessary additional work Smile

I know what you mean - it's been quite some time in development but hopefully that is a good thing. I think it's been good that we haven't had a continuous series of tweaks and part editions just the rules and the annually updated AI.

But as we're getting very close to a publication date now I'm less inclined to dicker about with the rules than in the past.

In fact the volume of traffic here has died back considerably, I suspect everyone's saving their energy for the inevitable 'new edition' debate because sure as eggs we'll all be equally delighted and disappointed with what's included and what's not Smile

In the meantime I have Baroque which is a cracking game that is keeping me wholly occupied. Both at the game table and the painting table but I'm painfully aware that my huge kickstarter box from FIB will arrive soon with massive Hellenistic reinforcements and a couple dozen elephants so I will be heading back to Ancients big time later in the year.
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Re: Has anyone tried a different U measure in 15mm?

Post by Sun of York on Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:39 am

Played a game with U=17mm.  It worked well.  My blog post can be found here: http://onesidedminiaturewargamingdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/2016/07/early-macedonian-successors-vs-indians.html
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Re: Has anyone tried a different U measure in 15mm?

Post by stecal on Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:21 pm

where do you get that 25mm U = 1 inch? Rulebook says 25mm U = 2cm. My understanding is that the game default is based off 15mm 1 U=1cm and that 25mm is the one that is "off"

We initially tied playing 25mm with U = 1 inch, but it felt all wrong. Much happier since we changed to using a 2cm marked ruler.

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Re: Has anyone tried a different U measure in 15mm?

Post by Sun of York on Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:42 pm

Doh!

Well spotted.  This is what happens when you learn the rules from others rather than reading the rules.

And also what you have pointed out matches with Zippee's comment that 25mm is the one that is "wrong".

In my defence the rules do say "it might be easier to use inches", but that is irrelevant to my concern which is clearly wrong.  U for 15mm is mean to be 1cm.

So it goes.

Pity, as I liked the dynamic of the larger value.

Thanks for your comment/correction :-)
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