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Baroque - first impressions

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Baroque - first impressions

Post by Tankred on Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:06 am

Since my copy arrived on Friday (great!) , I would like to start the discussion with the first Feedback:

The book design
In general, I like how the layout improved: the light background pattern, clear Typography and Tipps in SAGA style (Ragnar) are really comprehensive and good. I really appreciate important things in bold to help reading and finding things. I really appreciate that everything is kept short and slim. Currently rulebooks tend to be ridiculous thick. The Tables section is better and in addition to the wire binding were helpful during a game.

Writing style
I am not a native english speaker, but my impression is, that the text is way better than in IMPETVS. Short style, easy to understand with carefully chosen examples. We can see how experienced Lorenzo is and that he plays and reads other wargames as well in order to pick up best practises. So far I have the impression, that the book is better sorted and things which belong together are kept in one paragraph.

Impetus Bonus and First Charge/Shot
A big change is for sure that the impetus bonus is still there for units which still have more thant 50% of the initial VBU. I like this very much since in many of my games the impetus bonus seems to be a one hit wonder.
A similar idea that the first shot in a game or the first charge performs better is also very stylish and helps to carefully plan a charge.

Measurement
I like the new distance basis very much. It is more easy to remember and close enough to the old values.

Basedesign
Again, a wise decison since the base sizes combine with other systems such as Black Powder, By Fire and Sword or FOG renaissance and therefore people may be willing to give impetus a try.

New unit types
I really like the new and old style tercio rules, it makes a difference but depending on your movement both can perform very well. The options for cavalry like dragoons or even mixed units they sound comprehensive and well chosen. Every important cavalry type is represented and sound attractive.

Shooting
I like the shooting with reduced effiency as shooting will more often occur in Baroque and hence often you will find situations where the Impetus line of sight rools may be too restrictive.
The pistol shot right before melee perfectly fits to the Baroque epoche.

Reactions
The changes for reacting in the opponent´s turn sound good to me. The status of opportunity was dropped with the status of having reacted, which makes things a little bit more easy I think. For this epoche and the fact, that there is a defensive fire, this makes sense.

Dislikes
Now there is a persue table and charge table, I understand the need and the outcome sounds reasonable to me, but the amount of tables should be kept at a minimum. Other than that nothing that bothers me so far.

I will continue with my general feedback, as soon as I read through melee.

What are your first impressions?

ooops, maybe this should be in the rules section. Sorry.
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by stecal on Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:24 pm

Sounds good. Now I have to wait for my copy.

What army lists are in the main rule book?

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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Tankred on Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:07 am

German Catholic (1618-32)
Swedish (1630-34)
English Royalist (1642-43)
English Parlamentarian (1642-44)
Ottoman Turk (1645-1700)
Later Imperial (1648-1700)
Later Polish (1632-1700)

See also http://www.dadiepiombo.it/english-baroque.html
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by stecal on Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:26 am

Thanks. Ottoman Turks are what I wanted to see!

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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Axebreaker on Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:04 pm

Looking very much forward to getting my copy and equally pleased the basing is flexible as my armies are based on 80mm x 60mm giving me a frontage of 240mm for my pike and shot regiments.

Christopher
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Axebreaker on Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:28 am

Just received my copy and I agree with pretty much everything you said. A lovely book and glad Lorenzo took his time to get it right.

What I liked the most was the organization and writing style which is a major improvement over Impetus. If this a precursor for Impetus2 then I see the player base dramatically increasing.

Very well done Lorenzo and looking forward to playing a game.Very Happy

Christopher
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Zippee on Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:27 am

I think there are a couple of significant changes missing from the list above:

a) No group moves!

b) Victory points and morale - units remain fresh until taking over 50% VBU loss when they become Exhausted. Exhausted units deduct their VD from the Command Total (VDC), eliminated ones deduct double their VD. This is calculated at the end of each turn, not cumulatively. Units can be voluntarily withdrawn by DT to avoid this but will still count as exhausted if in that state at the time. Your Command breaks if its VDC is reduced to 0. At this point all units must take a DT - fail and its eliminated, pass and fight on. Once the army VDT reaches 0 - you're done, game over.

Pretty significant changes! Which together with the much improved Reaction change the game a lot - for the better IMO. Very Happy

And yes the improved layout with hints and tips and better translation is great, big thumbs up to Lorenzo on that. cheers


Last edited by Zippee on Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:56 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : To remove stupid error caused by defective memory)
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Axebreaker on Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:32 pm

@ Zippee

In the Victory points and morale I read it as a unit will either be counted as Exhausted or as Routed when you calculate morale and is not cumulative. For example when a command/army breaks it's the condition of the units at the time of breaking(end of turn) and not throughout the whole game which is calculated.

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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Zippee on Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:42 pm

A unit is counted as exhausted at the point it happens and that VD loss is permanent, Lorenzo clarified that here http://impetus.ativiforum.com/t756-first-game

So not just the situation at the time - withdrawn exhausted units still deduct from the VDC/T.


Last edited by Zippee on Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:17 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : for being dim - I blame the drink)
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Axebreaker on Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:06 pm

@Zippee

I've read the response and it's still from my understanding there is no cumulative in which a unit gives both exhausted and routed in effect x3 VD loss. A unit will give up either Exhausted or Routed. If when calculating you reach 0 with command/army then all tests are then taken. Of course when a unit is exhausted you still will be careful and will need decide if you want to risk losing only it's base VD's or losing double which certainly something to think about.

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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Zippee on Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:52 pm

Yep,
sorry I'm being dim today.

You calculate afresh each end of turn, rather than keep a running tally as we used to.

Withdrawn units still get counted as exhausted even though they are off table.

So any individual unit can only count as a maximum of double its own VD at a time.

Embarassed

I'll go back and edit again Very Happy
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Axebreaker on Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:03 pm

@Zippee

Yes, that's my understanding. Smile

Christopher
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Von Mercy on Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:14 pm

The first impression, very good. The manual, photographs, diagrams, etc. Changes in the rules seem successful, (the reaction I use for some time in my own adaptation of Basic Baroque solo). Everything seems fine. I have to go deeper. But, I repeat, my first impression very good. Lorenzo Good luck and thanks.
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Fat Wally on Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:46 am

First impression.  What a fantastic job.  It all looks great, it reads much better than Impetus and there are no glaring cock ups.

Obviously I have to read and re-read over and over again to get my head round it but first impression: Well worth the wait.

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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Zippee on Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:02 am

Morning Kev,
they're a horrible set of rules - they've cost me £200 already Shocked
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Aurelius on Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:55 am

My copy has arrived, and on first reading the rules look very good indeed. Very Happy

Looking forward to some great ECW / TYW actions.

A number of questions inevitably arise, some of the other threads have already answered some of my questions, but overall an excellent job.

TD

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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by Tankred on Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:26 am

@ Zipee
no groups, you are right, I kind of overread this. Thanks! I guess this reflects the bigger mixed units well.

Melee
What I like too is the new melee modifier for infantry which works similar to the impetus bonus and reflects the masses of a formation but without the need of a charge.

I really like the new info graphic for multiple melee showing the main unit (m) and the support unit (s). Pretty much self explainating. Great!

Unit upgrades
You can add fluff with some decent effect on the unit. So if you want you can add anything from preacher to whore with slight shifts on the stats of your army.

Shooting
What is in the way changed a little bit and a unit can fire with reduced firepower if there is some limitation. Again this seems to fit perfect to the bigger units.
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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by stecal on Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:36 am

Played our first game yesterday. We were very pleased with the rules. The reaction mechanisms give you tons of decision points as the defender when or if to attempt your only reaction or wait for defensive fire.

Game seems even faster to play than Impetus due to the withdraw an exhausted unit or lose 2 x VD if destroyed. Games can end quickly with a few disasters.


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Re: Baroque - first impressions

Post by rnsulentic on Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:18 am

stecal wrote:Played our first game yesterday.  We were very pleased with the rules.  The reaction mechanisms give you tons of decision points as the defender when or if to attempt your only reaction or wait for defensive fire.

Game seems even faster to play than Impetus due to the withdraw an exhausted unit or lose 2 x VD if destroyed.  Games can end quickly with a few disasters.


We found the cavalry fights very back and forth. Absent super dice rolls, who ever has the last fresh unit will win. But it all happened so fast that neither one of us was able to 'withdraw' our cavalry units. They either won or died.

The infantry fight was a mostly inconclusive firefight, but a lucky two hit roll from artillery on a Swedish battalion that had already been attritted two strength points followed by a six on the cohesion test roll was one of the disasters Steve referred to above.

One of the Imperial LTE tercios well and truly crushed another Swedish battalion that tried to salvo and charge. Although the Imperials didn't get defensive fire, The raw strength of the tercio plus the MM was impressive.

Got a big kick out of massed caracoling reiters. the MM again was very significant and probably tipped the balance in the cavalry fight.

Pictures at the link.
First Baroque game

Still haven't flocked some stands, while figuring out how to base what and how.

We think that Horse like Cuirassiers and other trotters will be one rank maybe three each.  I'm basing four mounted figures on a 60x80mm base for massed reiters. (I have thought of using 6 mounted figures 3 deep on a 60x120mm base for massed reiters too).

I am basing the the infantry for a Later Tercio on 3 60x120mm stands which is a good compromise on both available stands that can be bought and I actually have 1 to 1 musket to pike ratio of figures!!


Last edited by rnsulentic on Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:20 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : correct text)
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