Latest topics
» An Ancient Campaign using Sabin's Empire as a basis and Basic Impetus (augmented) to fight the battles
Today at 3:04 pm by 1ngram

» Averaging cohesion tests
Yesterday at 10:19 am by Tankred

» VISABILITY
Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:45 am by Gaius Cassius

» Basic Impetus v Impetus?
Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:25 pm by Zippee

» Some questions
Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:35 am by RogerC

» Basic Battles expansion
Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:18 pm by stecal

» any players in the northwest ?
Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:56 pm by Jim Webster

» Impetus Competition Derby Worlds 2017
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:31 pm by slowjoecrow

» First 3 games with Ptolemaics
Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:29 pm by Jim Webster

Impetus Competition Derby Worlds 2017

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:42 pm by Cyrus The Adequate

There will be a 28mm Impetus Competition at Derby World Wargames on 7th …

Comments: 6

Impetus at Derby?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:29 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Anyone interested ? 7th & 8th October at a new venue - Bruntingthorpe …

Comments: 11

Wintercon '17 July 15-16th

Sat May 06, 2017 11:44 pm by Tarty

Canberra July 15th-16th

Basic Impetus 2
28mm
Game days are Saturday and Sunday


Comments: 0

BI2 tournament - 25 March 2017

Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:08 am by RogerC

Would anyone be interested in a 28mm Basic Impetus 2 tournament on 25 March …

Comments: 24

28mm Impetus Competition York Sunday 5th February 2017

Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:44 am by Cyrus The Adequate

The traditional start to the Impetus Competition calendar in the UK is York in …

Comments: 80

1° BASIC IMPETUS tournament

Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:19 am by PAPERO

in Castegnato , near Brescia, Sunday, 08.01.2017 Cool

1st tournament BASIC …

Comments: 3

August 2017
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031   

Calendar Calendar


Massed units

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Massed units

Post by stecal on Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:39 am

Several things about massed units are unclear to me in the army lists. I am trying not to assume that these are identical to Impetus large units.

Do massed units pay for more bases or is their size already included in the purchase cost & VBU of 7 or 8?. Are early tercios 3 units deep, or just one unit 180mm deep? Likewise Late Tercios - are these 2 units or just a deep 120mm base?

How do optionally massed units like reiters or spahis work? Do you purchases multiple units or is massing "free" and the cost is the slow move penalty.

I found no rules about how massed units work for losses. If massed units are multiple units do casualties remove the rear bases like Impetus? If the rear bases are removed are they still massed?

stecal
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 136
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2015-02-06
Location : Philadelphia, PA USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Massed units

Post by Zippee on Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:27 pm

As far as I can see it's just a term that indicates the unit is large and dense with a tendency to being slow.

It is a unit which has the "Massed" effect applied to it - some units such as tercios are always massed, some like reiters have it as an option.

As an example when buying massed reiters - you buy a unit of reiters, then for 0 points convert it into massed reiters. As a consequence it moves slow, has a deeper base and some other abilities that non-massed units don't. So if you can have 4 units of reiters, you can have up to 4 units of massed reiters, you don't combine 2 unmassed ones.

I don't believe they are multiple units - they are a unit that is massed.

Note for instance that WB don't increase in depth - no "second base" they just become Massed. The only units that need to increase their depth are mounted.

PS why are there no elephants in the rules - they were being used in the relevant parts of the world.
avatar
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 541
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 54
Location : London, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Re: Massed units

Post by stecal on Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:02 pm

Thanks. Kinda what I thought since there were no rules for removal of rear bases.

Makes those massed units not so scary since they don't have a combined VBU of 12-15 like Impetus

stecal
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 136
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2015-02-06
Location : Philadelphia, PA USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Massed units

Post by Zippee on Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:41 pm

No problem - bear in mind my opinion is worth what you paid for it. Very Happy

The more we play the more the absence of groups changes stuff - for instance yesterday's game pitted two 1000 point ECW armies with poor command - that's a general's influence reduced to 2BU, that really hurts because there are no groups to transmit the control.

So one long line is bad, multiple lines good. The standard wargamer tactic discouraged historical depth encouraged. Added to the new VDT system and the need to withdraw units and replace them with fresh, we're seeing much more realistic deployments.

All good stuff.


Last edited by Zippee on Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 541
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 54
Location : London, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Re: Massed units

Post by stecal on Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:58 pm

I think he got rid of groups because each unit can be a regt or brigade, which is about the largest maneuver unit until the Napoleonic period introduced divisions & corps.

I do like the reduced command range. We thought impetus was too generous & were thinking of adding command pips or something to limit it.

stecal
VBU 3
VBU 3

Posts : 136
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2015-02-06
Location : Philadelphia, PA USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Massed units

Post by Zippee on Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:33 pm

I suspect its deeper than that - it would be fairly straightforward to claim a line of battalia to be every bit as much of a manoeuvre element as a line of syntagma or cohorts.

I think groups were a mechanic to enforce solid battlelines and discourage firework displays. I think the changed VDT system and command radii generate a similar effect through player-command choice rather than rule imposition.

Similarly with Reaction v opportunity/ZOC - command decision v geometry.

Trust me 2BU sucks big time Smile the absolute most you can handle is 6 units in two waves and as soon as anything changes something is out of command. Deciding when and where to move your general is now a serious consideration.
avatar
Zippee
VBU 5
VBU 5

Posts : 541
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2014-05-19
Age : 54
Location : London, UK

View user profile https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/

Back to top Go down

Re: Massed units

Post by dadiepiombo on Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:25 am

ok, I see everything has been cleared.

Yes, for Baroque we didn't see the reason to keep Groups (something that in Impetus is more important and probably not enough valorized untill the introduction of the flank bonus).
avatar
dadiepiombo
Admin
Admin

Posts : 851
Reputation : 33
Join date : 2014-05-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Massed units

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum