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Vapnartak York Feb 2018- format options?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:26 am by Cyrus The Adequate

Hi everyone

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Reaction Fire

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Reaction Fire

Post by stecal on Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:26 pm

I am thinking that perhaps attempting reaction/opportunity fire should have a -1 discipline test modifier at long range.  

As an experiment in our last game I used veteran A class Swedish P&M units with attached battalion guns plus 3 artillery.  Because I was facing 4 of Tilly's VBU 8 Late Tercios I began blazing away immediately at long range. What happened was that frequently I was able to fire twice in a game turn.  Once as an opportunity fire, then again when I took my turn.  The double disruption hits from cohesion tests just wore away my opponent before he could close, being slow.  Was this an unexpected result or was I just getting what I paid for when I bought A class?

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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by Zippee on Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:49 pm

I'd say you were getting what you paid for - A class troops are vastly superior to anything else.

You also had to actually hit when you fired, not guaranteed.

Also Tilly should have neutralised the effect by using skirmishers.

He also shouldn't move if he can't recover the disorder, thus negating your ability to react against a disordered unit.
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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by stecal on Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:13 pm

"He also shouldn't move if he can't recover the disorder, thus negating your ability to react against a disordered unit.

I made sure I went 2nd. Perhaps bad tactics on his part, but I had the expert commander who could reroll the dice to fail If need be.

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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by Zippee on Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:00 pm

So superior infantry, more guns and better command.

Tilly must have had advantages elsewhere on the field then, presumably his cavalry were eating your flanks up whilst his terccios weathered the storm Smile


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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by stecal on Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:01 am

Nope, Swedish cavalry rode them down too Very Happy

Last game the Swedes tried to hold their first fire until short range, big mistake & the Massed Tercios rolled right over them with their melee bonus. Of course it all seems backward to history as the Tercios generally stood like large lumps and the aggressive Swedes would attack them

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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by Zippee on Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:28 am

OK, something seems a bit odd then - could just be unbalanced dice rolling, hard to tell after a single instance.

Tilly needs to have a rethink - sounds like the Swedes did after the previous game, there's nearly always a counter, be it better play, better army design or better luck Smile


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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by stecal on Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:05 pm

A good number of his loses were to command breaking and all failing their test. Like i mentioned elsewhere, being forced to buy 3 generals in a 600 point game is a detriment with very expensive armies like Tilly's tercios. in this case a 3 point cavalry unit was destroyed, taking down the entire 6 point command.

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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by dadiepiombo on Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:07 pm

first question. Did you paid the full cost the Swedish veterans (76 and not 64 as reported by the rules, yes in case just my fault as I hav still to publish the errata  Embarassed )?

Second, you have the reroll for first fire when you fire first. So firting at ling disatance means you re-roll few dice.

Anyway it can happen that Swedish elite can be nasty. Probbably Tilly has still to learn on how not expose so easily at fire his Tercios.

Have you applied anyway the -1 for the Test?
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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by stecal on Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:08 pm

I have no idea on eratta.  Yes on all the rest.  

waiting for first fire at short range vs VBU 8 tercios is too late, esp if they took hardened unit, rerolling cohesion tests on a 6.  Only way to whittle them down is multiple disorders on cohesion tests.

A class rolling tests on 3+ nicely counters the -1 for opportunity fire.

My original idea is that opportunity fire should not be occurring at long range, thus the additional -1 at long range for reaction I proposed above. Units should only be reacting to threats nearby, not targets 4-8 BU away.

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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by rnsulentic on Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:43 am

Zippee wrote:I'd say you were getting what you paid for - A class troops are vastly superior to anything else.

You also had to actually hit when you fired, not guaranteed.

Also Tilly should have neutralised the effect by using skirmishers.

He also shouldn't move if he can't recover the disorder, thus negating your ability to react against a disordered unit.

Skirmishers? What skirmishers? What are you smoking? This is 1631, not 1870.

Plus there's only a single "Schutzen" unit available to the list. It would not have helped, because it could not cover the frontage.

Standing there, isn't an answer, because even if you rally off the disorder, you'll just get shot at again.

Now, this is the first battle where the Imperials haven't just walked over the Swedish infantry, so maybe this is all what it should be. Perhaps there needs to be more of an artillery bombardment than what we usually do.
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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by dadiepiombo on Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:38 am

how have you calculated reggimental artillery? It is a +1 in general but not another +1 for shooting at massed units
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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by stecal on Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:09 pm

dadiepiombo wrote:how have you calculated reggimental artillery? It is a +1 in general but not another +1 for shooting at massed units

no,  not doing that.  Maybe I just had hot dice & got lots of hits and the results were out of ordinary, but we ended up with 4 Early tercios with 3-4 hits each by the time they reached 1 BU range.  Facing them were 2 veteran swede P&M with regt guns, 2 normal swede P&M,  2 x Art B & 1 x art A.  Most of the Swedes had 1 hit or less & lost one artillery unit to a charge.

Like I said, I think allowing reaction fire at any range to be the problem.

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Re: Reaction Fire

Post by d_Guy on Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:34 pm

I play ECW so no experience with tercios. In thinking through the discriptions above it would seem that at best you would be rolling two or three die at long range so IMHO the number of hits scored is due to much better the average rolling and likely not reproducible on a routine basis.

That said, I would like to see an ammunition expenditure rule (I use one) which would cut down on firing at every possible opportunity (you're not forced to react to units at long range after all). For me, at least, the existing opportunity fire rules work well.

As to "skirmishers" - call them a "forlorn" Smile
You could do away with one of the tercios and add two T musketeers (plus the Schutzen) to form a fairly effective screen (historic sensibilities aside Smile )

Incidentally - the double disruption casualties that often occur to units you want to press forward rapidly is a definite killer - I love it!

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Re: Reaction Fire

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