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Caracoling massed Reiters

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Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by Andrew Lake on Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:20 pm

Can they use the second move after shooting to charge?

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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by paulbgau on Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:01 am

I would say NO - they are not SALVO so cannot fire and charge.


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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by stecal on Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:35 pm

rule 6.1, pg 29 "only mounted troops can fire before charging"

I'd say yes. The caracole rule clearly says that the reiters will be able to " complete its activation with one or more movement actions" after firing twice. Passing all those discipline tests as slow movers will be the trick

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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by Aurelius on Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:58 pm

Interesting question, I'm on a learning curve here. I'd say yes, rule 6.1.6 on page 31, says that Infantry are not allowed to fire before charging, except those with "salvo". So cavalry can fire and charge.

TD

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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by paulbgau on Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:34 am

Caracole and charging is not very historical. Reiters (caracole) tended to avoid charging and used their shooting.

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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by Zippee on Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:37 am

But the purpose of the caracole was to create a hole into which to barge the horses - rather depends what exactly is meant by the term "charge" - usually brings to mind images of Errol Flynn at a mad gallop.

I doubt any horse charged like that, it's all a rather sedate move into contact. So don't get caught in the semantics of a word.

I'm fairly certain the rules allow RE to 'charge' after shooting but they do have to pass a heap of DTs to do so and if they don't they're sat disordered in front of the enemy - never a good place to be. So it's not without risk of going pear-shaped.
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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by d_Guy on Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:50 pm

Not very well connected to wargaming circles and perhaps the term is used but "barge" seems an excellent choice for what TR, in particular, we're trying to do - a forced entry disrupting the opponents formation. So GA charge and TR (and maybe RE) barge. I like the usage Zippee. Very Happy

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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by paulbgau on Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:42 am

Zippee wrote:But the purpose of the caracole was to create a hole into which to barge the horses - rather depends what exactly is meant by the term "charge" - usually brings to mind images of Errol Flynn at a mad gallop.

I doubt any horse charged like that, it's all a rather sedate move into contact. So don't get caught in the semantics of a word.

I'm fairly certain the rules allow RE to 'charge' after shooting but they do have to pass a heap of DTs to do so and if they don't they're sat disordered in front of the enemy - never a good place to be. So it's not without risk of going pear-shaped.

I'm not lost in the semantics of the words, although I would expect something a little more aggressive than a 'sedate move', but rarely Error Flynn. I like 'barge' as after the initial contact that what I would expect, using the horse to push your way through.

I see what you describe more as Trotters. I understand that that was their model, ride up and shoot then press home. In Baroque I see that as the point blank pistol trait rather than Pistol shooting from range (although I wish there was some way to 'reload' your point blank pistol - but that's a different issue).

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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by paulbgau on Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:01 am

Maybe a roll of 5 or 6 on the Charge bonus is the 'Error Flynn' charge.
Laughing

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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by Zippee on Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:54 pm

paulbgau wrote:
I'm not lost in the semantics of the words, although I would expect something a little more aggressive than a 'sedate move', but rarely Error Flynn. I like 'barge' as after the initial contact that what I would expect, using the horse to push your way through.

I see what you describe more as Trotters. I understand that that was their model, ride up and shoot then press home. In Baroque I see that as the point blank pistol trait rather than Pistol shooting from range (although I wish there was some way to 'reload' your point blank pistol - but that's a different issue).

Reiter to Trotter to Galloper is an evolution of how to use the new wonder weapon on horseback. Ultimately the unsurprising conclusion was that while it's useful to have mobile shooters, mobile shock is better suited to the arme blanche when the peasant infantry can out shoot you..

Caracoling is an extension of older cantabrian/skythian shooting tactics whereby you concentrate continuous missile pressure at a single point rather than diffuse it along a line and when you create a crack you exploit it. It just has limited value when the target can shoot you more than you can shoot it.

Reiters concentrate on the shooting with an option to move to contact. Trotters are always going to contact but want to shoot first to make a hole. Gallopers just want to get in your face and then shoot you.
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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by Andrew Lake on Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:13 pm

I asked the question with the view the rules allow it , however the caracole tactic was to shoot and avoid contact if possible so although able to charge historically they should shoot twice and withdraw as second movement. So move forward shoot , discipline test, shoot again, discipline test then withdraw

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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by Zippee on Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:10 pm

I'm not entirely certain I agree that that was their tactical objective.

Shoot and then move away - why? What's been gained?

Surely, it's shoot, shoot some more, keep shooting until you've achieved your objective or you chicken out and head home.

The objective is the defeat of the enemy force, shoot until they waver and then do what horse do and turn that waver into a rout.
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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by Andrew Lake on Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:29 pm

Advance (Best against infantry against cavalry would be stupid unless other reiters)shoot , shoot some more withdraw beyond their charge range, leaving them disordered and bloodied. This way they get no chances to roll any more dice than necessary other than shooting against one of your less combatty cavalry units. You can either charge in with another unit or wait to see what your opponent does with the unit you just shot up,

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Re: Caracoling massed Reiters

Post by Zippee on Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:11 pm

You've switched back to game tactics - we were discussing actual tactics.
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