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General rules questions

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General rules questions

Post by RainDog on Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:00 am

Hi.
We have some questions after our firsts impetus games.

1. A unit can not evade if the enemy is persuing after a mele but, can other unit make an opportunity charge against it?

2. A similar one. If a unit is in opportunity, can it do a counter charge against a unit that is pursuing?

3.The impetuous move must be forward or in a direction that let the unit to approach to the nearest enemy unit (ignoring S). If there are no enemies in front of the impetuous unit, can it still move forward, or must it wheel to face the enemy and then advance?

4. Can a impetuous unit elect not to ignore enemies S in the impetous move if it whishes?

5. If the army list allows you to buy a dismounted unit does it mean that the unit may dismount during a game, or it must be stated in the army notes?

6. Does a Large units lose its depth bonus if is contacted in the flank or rear, even if it was not a rear or flanl charge?

7. What happens if the unit that contacts the large unit is a supporting unit in the combat? Does the large unit still lose its depth bonus?

8. Similar to the last one. A supporting unit that makes a flank attack to a enemy unit armed with long spears nullifies its bonus for long spears against the main unit?

9. Please let us know if we play large units of FP+T. correctly.
They cannot move backwards.
T unit doesnt give depth bonus in combat.
The looses in cambat are taken by the rear unit.
T unit doesnt have the -2 penalty for indirect fire.
Shot distance is measured from the frontal unit.

Many thanks in advance,
Arturo.


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Re: General rules questions

Post by Zippee on Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:59 pm

Hi, welcome answers inserted with your questions below. I haven't got the book in formt of me so working from memory. Others will chip in as well.

1. A unit cannot evade if the enemy is pursuing after a melee but, can other unit make an opportunity charge against it?

No, you can only opportunity in the opponents turn and you cannot opportunity against pursuits.

2. A similar one. If a unit is in opportunity, can it do a counter charge against a unit that is pursuing?

No, you cannot opportunity against a pursuit

3. The impetuous move must be forward or in a direction that let the unit to approach to the nearest enemy unit (ignoring S). If there are no enemies in front of the impetuous unit, can it still move forward, or must it wheel to face the enemy and then advance?

No, it must move one movement phase directly ahead – or as an option it may wheel towards the nearest valid enemy. It does not have to wheel.

4. Can an impetuous unit elect not to ignore enemies S in the impetuous move if it wishes?

They only ignore them in the sense that they don’t cause impetuosity, you may still attempt to close on them – you can’t choose to wheel towards them.

5. If the army list allows you to buy a dismounted unit does it mean that the unit may dismount during a game, or it must be stated in the army notes?

If units can dismount it typically allows the unit to make a single mounted move and is then considered dismounted. This is usually when buying mounts for infantry. The rules are in the army lists and are slightly differently written in each. Something that AI could usefully address to be honest.

If the list allows you buy a dismounted option - say Frankish knights being bought as dismounts to stiffen the shield wall, then they are bought as dismounts, they are instead of the mounted version. you do not buy a mounted version and dismount to the dismounted versions. It's one or the other at the stated cost.

6. Does a Large units lose its depth bonus if is contacted in the flank or rear, even if it was not a rear or flank charge?

No

7. What happens if the unit that contacts the large unit is a supporting unit in the combat? Does the large unit still lose its depth bonus?

You mean in the flank? Then it’s not a flank charge, so No it retains the depth bonus

8. Similar to the last one. A supporting unit that makes a flank attack to an enemy unit armed with long spears nullifies its bonus for long spears against the main unit?

No you retain the long spear (or other advantage) against the relevant opponent

9. Please let us know if we play large units of FP+T. correctly.

They cannot move backwards.    
All units can move back it just disorders them

T unit doesn’t give depth bonus in combat.    
Correct

The losses in combat are taken by the rear unit.    
Correct

T unit doesn’t have the -2 penalty for indirect fire.    
Correct

Shot distance is measured from the frontal unit.    
Correct
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Re: General rules questions

Post by RainDog on Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Thanks a lot for you answers Zippee.

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Re: General rules questions

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:55 pm

Hey Rainbog, can you give us a specific example from one of the lists for question 5?

5. If the army list allows you to buy a dismounted unit does it mean that the unit may dismount during a game, or it must be stated in the army notes?

I understood your question differently that Zippee so it would be helpful to look at a specific example of what you had in mind.
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Re: General rules questions

Post by RainDog on Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:19 am

Gaius Cassius wrote:Hey Rainbog, can you give us a specific example from one of the lists for question 5?

5. If the army list allows you to buy a dismounted unit does it mean that the unit may dismount during a game, or it must be stated in the army notes?

I understood your question differently that Zippee so it would be helpful to look at a specific example of what you had in mind.

Hi Gaius Cassius.
The list is Italian Ostrogoths. Medieval and Renaissance beta lists, page 2.
It says
8-20 CP Ostrogoths Nobles 10-6-3-C-3-21 points
dism. as FP-Foot nobles 5-6-2-C-3-20 points

We were not sure if the CP could dismount during the game.

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Re: General rules questions

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:48 am

In that case no - you may choose to buy them mounted or dismounted but they remain that way throughout the game
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Re: General rules questions

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:00 pm

I agree with Cyrus. In this case the unit has two separate listings with two separate point costs.

If you take a look at EI2 you will see the Norman list (Vol 15.1) where the CP Milites are listed as CP for 22 points but underneath there is a second listing that states that they may dismount as FP Milites. The lower listing does not have a separate cost. In this case, they may dismount during the game (but we've found generally that dismounting during a game is not a good idea.) So in practice, one either deploys mounted or on foot. Also notice that in Impetus there is no rule for remounting so once the unit has dismounted it remains on foot.
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Re: General rules questions

Post by Zippee on Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:54 pm

Gaius Cassius wrote:
If you take a look at EI2 you will see the Norman list (Vol 15.1) where the CP Milites are listed as CP for 22 points but underneath there is a second listing that states that they may dismount as FP Milites. The lower listing does not have a separate cost. In this case, they may dismount during the game.

Are we sure that's the ruling?

I thought it was just a missing points entry.

What precisely are the rules for dismounting (as opposed to mounted infantry), is it disordering, does it cause disorder, does it provoke an opportunity?

I must have skipped this chapter.
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Re: General rules questions

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:38 pm

The dismounting rule is a tiny paragraph in 5.12. It is an action so I think it would prompt an response (ZOC or Opportunity.)

I have never seen it used since the only troops that can dismount that I have seen in the lists are C troops and the risk for failure is too high to make it worth while (automatic disorder.)

The Norman list makes it clear that this listing can dismount in the game.

I suppose one could make the argument that the player should be able to buy the Ostrogoth CP and then chose to dismount it in the set up or during the game. In that case, the list should be amended to show this (ie be layed out like the Norman list where the player pays the full cost of the CP and then choses to dismount in the game.) After all, the Ostrogoth list is a Beta list and perhaps hasn't been proofed sufficiently.

Overall, my thinking is with Cyrus on this. Take a look at the Lancastrian list where the player chooses either CP Other Nobles and Men at Arms or alternatively as FP. That decision is made in the list design and not on the table top (unlike the Norman list.) The layout of the current Ostrogoth list conforms to the Lancastrian list and not the Norman list.
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Re: General rules questions

Post by Zippee on Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:57 pm

Gaius Cassius wrote:The dismounting rule is a tiny paragraph in 5.12. It is an action so I think it would prompt an response (ZOC or Opportunity.)

I have never seen it used since the only troops that can dismount that I have seen in the lists are C troops and the risk for failure is too high to make it worth while (automatic disorder.)

Quite, hence why I question it as a rule - it's never been expanded, it seems a throwaway comment and I've never seen it enacted, and in the context of a tabletop battle I think it is out of place - the decision is made at deployment.

The Norman list makes it clear that this listing can dismount in the game. .

Couldn't remember - EI2 is in the games room and it's raining (and dark)  Very Happy

I suppose one could make the argument that the player should be able to buy the Ostrogoth CP and then chose to dismount it in the set up or during the game. In that case, the list should be amended to show this (ie be layed out like the Norman list where the player pays the full cost of the CP and then choses to dismount in the game.) After all, the Ostrogoth list is a Beta list and perhaps hasn't been proofed sufficiently.

Sorry I disagree, I don't like the 'Norman Option' and think it's an aberration that should be errata'd out of existence. Nearly every other list insists on a choice with differing points cost, which is I think sensible - I never take a beta list as determining rules in any case. In fact I tend to avoid them as pretty dodgy  Shocked

Overall, my thinking is with Cyrus on this. Take a look at the Lancastrian list where the player chooses either CP Other Nobles and Men at Arms or alternatively as FP. That decision is made in the list design and not on the table top (unlike the Norman list.) The layout of the current Ostrogoth list conforms to the Lancastrian list and not the Norman list.

Yes I agree which is how I answered the original question (I also made the distinction re mounted infantry which is a dismount rule of a wholly different cloth).

I absolutely prefer this mechanic, I think it's the only dismounting mechanic that should be employed (outside of mounted infantry which is just a bonus move really) - these decisions are made pre-game back in the camp.

I think in-game dismounting (and re-mounting) is something to be avoided like the plague as anyone who remembers the whole mounting/remounting debacle in DBM should know Very Happy
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Re: General rules questions

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:55 pm

Mongols have the option IIRC - frankly I don't see the reason for getting too upset - some lists allow dismounting in game. These are very few but not unjustified. The rules are pretty clear when you read them
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Re: General rules questions

Post by Zippee on Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:08 pm

Who's upset? You seem to assume any comment is made out of ire or angst - it's just opinion and as valid as yours.

It's inconsistently applied and I don't agree that it's justified. The rules may be clear (I'd debate that) but they are insufficient and ultimately unnecessary.
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Re: General rules questions

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:39 am

I looked at the Mongols list Cyrus but I didn't see the dismount option. I have a vague recollection that there is a list where the CM dismount and become T Composite Bow A.

I like the Norman list and others like it that give the player the option to dismount. It makes the Normans, for instance, which is mediocre list more competitive. I also think that there is a good historical argument for this option in certain armies. Certainly, the Anglo Norman milites were prone to dismount for battle. Keeping both options available depending on one's opponent works from my experience.

And I too think the rule is pretty straightforward.
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Re: General rules questions

Post by Tarty on Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:06 am

Apart from the rules for mounted infantry I can't recall anyone ever taking the dismounting option. Personally I too find it a little peculiar but never ruled it out as an option it is in there. Norman Milites deciding to abandon their mounts after riding into battle? ...hmm well yes ? Neutral
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Re: General rules questions

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:49 am

Gaius Cassius wrote:I looked at the Mongols list Cyrus but I didn't see the dismount option. I have a vague recollection that there is a list where the CM dismount and become T Composite Bow A.

And I too think the rule is pretty straightforward.

That's the one I was thinking of but dont have the lists to hand. I can in all honesty think of only one reason to do so - occupying a BUA but apart from that it is fairly redundant
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Re: General rules questions

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:24 pm

Dismounting during a game is very rare. So far that we've never seen it done. I too struggle to think of a situation where I'd want to do so.

Dismounting as part of the set up of the battle is quite common for us when using lists that allow this.

The big difference in this regard between the Norman and Lancastrian (and Ostrogoth) lists is in the design of the army. In the Norman list the player buys the CP and then decides on deployment whether to keep the CP mounted or to dismount as FP. I've done this many times where the CP are facing a lot of pike or FP with spear. Dismounted knights are very tough. In the Lancastrian list the player has to decide as part of his army design. He chooses one or the other. This gives the Norman list (and those like it) a bit of flexibility and a small advantage in this regard as compared to other lists. One that they often need.
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