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Rules Clarifications

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Rules Clarifications

Post by Boltar on Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:44 pm

Hi Guys

Bought the rules a month ago and will be playing our first game on Sunday with some experienced wargamers , but they have never played the rules before .

I have read the rules 3 times , checked out the forum posts , and downloaded the version 6 quick reference sheet and the Sept 2015 advanced rules ; so I think I have most things sorted out in my head , but there are a few things I would like to check out to be sure I am correct .

1) Am I right that after failing a cohesion test a unit may lose more VBU than damage it took from fire/melee. For example a unit takes 1 damage from missile fire and fails the cohesion test by 3 , so it will deduct 3 from it's VBU , not 1 , correct ? .

2) I see from the Advanced Impetus amendments that evading a charge is done when the attacking unit enters the frontal projection of the sides of the unit . But if an attacking unit has come in from an oblique angle and has used up 75% of its charge move when it enters the ZOC and is only 1 inch away ; does the evading unit lose 75% of it's evasion move , does it lose nothing and can make a full move , or something else ?.

3) Following on from the above , it says the evasion has to be straight back , does that mean 180 degrees from the front facing of the unit , or 180 degrees from the direction the enemy is charging from ? .

4) Steep hills . I can see that moving units on a hill lose their impetus bonus , but if the higher unit charges downhill does it not get some kind of bonus like a gentle hill does ; after all it still is above it's opponent ? .

5) If a unit when activated moves it's full move of 5U and ends up 3U away from an enemy and then does a second move to contact the enemy unit , does it do a disruption test before resolving the melee , or do you go straight to the melee ?.

6) To get the impetus bonus in melee do you have to declare a charge even when there is no need for a bonus move as the enemy unit is well within the normal move range ?.

7) Visibility for firing . Why is it that when a target is partially behind cover you need to see two corners to fire at it , but only 1 corner needs to be in the 45% angle , as per the diagram on page 35 ?.  

Cool I am a little confused about charge bonuses and disruption . 5.8.1 seems to be saying that when a charge is declared you roll the dice for the bonus move , add it to your normal move distance , move that total distance , and if you do not contact the enemy you are disordered . However example 2 after 5.11.1 seems to say that the unit declares a charge , moves it's normal move , take a discipline test , and only on passing it is the dice rolled for the bonus move and the unit moves that extra distance .

Thanks
Tony

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Re: Rules Clarifications

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:05 am

1) Correct.
2) Full evade move.
3)180 degrees from the front facing of the unit.
4) It says in the rules that with respect to Steep Hills “no advantage is given to elevated position.” That seems pretty clear to me.
5) A discipline test always taken at the end of each extra move before any melee.
6) To contact an enemy unit you must declare a charge.
7) Not certain what you are referring to?

The example in 5.11.1 refers to charging units capable of evading so the sequencing needs to be different in practice. In most cases where the defending unit cannot evade it make sense to roll the bonus distance at the time of the charge declaration for ease of play. In the case of units capable of evading it makes sense to differentiate the two steps because of the cat and mouse element of the game (as explained in the 2nd example.) The rules in AI call this a Potential Charge. Suppose in the example of the CM start 15U away from the CL. CM declares a charge, CL decides whether to stand or evade knowing that the CM must its bonus charge distance in order to contact. Does the CL stand hoping that the CM fails making contact on 1-4 becoming disordered or does the CL evade not wishing to take the chance that the CM rolls 5-6 on the charge distance bonus.

In practice with units capable of evading we do it this way.

1. Attacking unit declares charge on unit capable of evading. This is now called a Potential Charge (see Advanced Impetus.)
2. Defending units decides whether to evade or not and rolls relevant DT.
3. Charging unit attempts to contact if unit stands or cancels charge to a normal move if unit evades.
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Re: Rules Clarifications

Post by Boltar on Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:11 pm

Thanks Gaius , it's mostly what I expected , but it's nice to get confirmation.

With regard to steep hills I was aware of what the rule states , but I was looking for a reason why there was a difference between gentle and steep hills when on the face of it if you get a +1 being higher on a gentle hill , you would expect to get a +1 (or more) on a steep hill . The guys at the club will ask me and I wanted to give them an answer .

With visibility for firing . If a target is only partially visible , then according to 6.3.2 you have to be able to trace a straight line from the 2 front corners of the firing unit to 2 corners of the target unit ; and then the target can be shot at . I would have thought that something similar would be needed with regard to the firing arc . Yet the left hand diagram on page 35 shows unit B with only about 2% of the base in angle (one corner) , yet unit T can fire at it . The question was , why can I fire at one unit when only a tiny bit of one corner is in angle ; but another unit has exactly the same amount of it's base peeking out from behind a hill and I cannot fire at it ? .

I have it sorted now about charge moves against evading and non evading troops . The only situation that I would like clearing up is when charging non evading troops and it is your second movement and you need the bonus move to possibly contact the enemy unit . Do you a) declare the charge , roll for the bonus , move the total distance and if you contact the enemy roll for the discipline test , and if you do not contact the enemy stand there disordered . Or b) declare the charge , move your normal distance , take a discipline test , and if you pass it roll the bonus dice and then move the extra , which if it doesn't contact the enemy leaves you disordered . Not much difference I know . but one way guarantees you to move the bonus distance , the other way doesn't .

Also a couple of queries came to mind last night .

1) A unit gets attacked on the flank/rear and the melee ends in a draw . Does the defending unit a) turn it's base to face the attacker and later rounds are deemed to be frontal attacks . b) the unit stays facing the same way , but again , is it deemed to be a frontal melee in later rounds .Or c) later rounds are still classed as a flank attack ; or is it something else entirely .

2) This may seem silly , but if my unit is attacked and it ends in a draw . And I then activate the command with this unit in , can I choose not to fight a melee by not activating the unit . 4.1.1 says I MAY activate a unit to fight a melee ; nowhere can I see that you must fight it whether you want to or not .

Thanks

Tony

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Re: Rules Clarifications

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:41 am

Hey Tony

I don’t know exactly what is in Lorenzo’s mind but I would imagine that unlike gentle hills which have a useful slope for charging down a steep hill is probably too steep to build up that kind of steam (plus it would likely have more disrupting terrain to overcome.) I don’t know about you but I find climbing up steep hills safer than going down them.

With respect to firing there are two aspects to determining whether a unit is capable of being a target, visibility and range. In the case of B part of the unit falls within the 45 degree arc so is able to be targeted. The unit is also able to draw non crossing lines from two of its corners to two corners on the target unit. In the case of firing at B the one corner to corner line goes backward and I agree that this creates a suspect situation. One small correction could be that corner to corner lines for visibility cannot be drawn in a manner that goes backwards as related to the firing unit. To be honest, I have never seen this situation come up before.  

With respect to charging. Declare charge, roll bonus move, move unit, roll DT for extra movement phase (if necessary.) If the unit didn’t actually contact the enemy unit after the bonus charge distance then it automatically disorders and any DT for an extra move is moot.

1. Correct answer is [c]. Later rounds are classified as a flank attack but note that the attacker only gets the +2 dice on the first round of melee, not later rounds.  

2. When a command activates any ongoing melees from units that command are also activated and need to be fought. The player doesn’t get the choice not to activate unpromising melees. Take a look at 7.6.5.
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Re: Rules Clarifications

Post by Zippee on Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:23 pm

Further to point 2 and making it slightly more general.

Each unit in your command must be activated - even if you do nothing with it, there's no option of "missing a go".

I think the reason 4.1.1 says "may" is because you "may" equally choose to activate a different unit either already in contact with the same enemy unit or to throw it into that combat.

Also on rare occasions the unit "may " have already activated because it was activated when a unit in a different command but in the same combat activated and the combat was completed then.
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Re: Rules Clarifications

Post by Boltar on Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:34 pm

Gaius

Thanks for the reply which I was able to read just before I set off for our game and it  helped us out  .

Zippee

I looked at 4.1 again and you are right that units , (or groups) , are activated one by one , even when you intend to do nothing with them . I guess in practice most people will only bother to activate units that will perform an action and then say that is it . I can't see the point of saying " I activate unit A and do nothing , now I activate unit B and do nothing"  etc .

Just to pick up on the last point about the unit may have been activated earlier if in a melee with units of other commands which are activated in their command phase .
I thought that units that restart a melee only activated other units of their own command , not units of other commands ; although they will fight in the melee ; as per 7.7.4 .

On another topic , I was looking at the rules for flank charges , 7.2.2 and realised that the way it was written and the example shown assumed that the units that could do a flank charge would all start and finish their move below the line of the front of the unit being charged . But what about a unit that starts below that line , but when it contacts the enemy unit has some of the unit above the line ? . Just look at the example on page 37 ; if D was pointing at unit C , not E , then when it charged A , wouldn't some (if not most) of the unit be above the line . Would that mean it wasn't a flank attack ? .

Tony

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Re: Rules Clarifications

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:12 pm

"Also on rare occasions the unit "may " have already activated because it was activated when a unit in a different command but in the same combat activated and the combat was completed then."

If I have understood Zippee's point correctly then he is mistaken on this one. Imagine two friendly units (A and B), each from a different command, in a melee together against a common enemy (Z). A's command activates and A initiates a melee against Z. B is included in the melee because it is contact with Z. When B's command is activated B can also initiate a melee against Z which will include A.

Lorenzo answered this in an earlier discussion. Take a look at the link. Lots of reading to get to the ruling but I think it will help you understand the rules Tony.

http://impetus.ativiforum.com/t293-multiple-melee?highlight=melee
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Re: Rules Clarifications

Post by Zippee on Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 pm

dadiepiombo wrote:starting with the presumption that this is a very rare case that 2 units or even 3 belonging to different command can start their activation still in contact with an enemy unit, the rules simply follow a linear approach.

1) When you activate a Unit and thatr Unitis in contact with the enemy, it must take its round of melee

2) If the Unit above is a a supporting Unit it will remain a supporting unit.

This is a passive activation and I tried to explain in Extra Impetus 3 page 27 where in example 3 there is not a specification if the unit is the main or the supporting. It will start a new round of melee and the other Unit will do the same when active in the odd case they are still there after more than 2 rounds of melee

That is the "ruling".

My point was that the use of the term "may" in 4.1.1 is because a unit may fight because it is activated or may fight because it fights as part of another command's activation.

And I then added that if the melee was concluded in that other command's activation then it wouldn't activate in the melee. Which is of course superfluous and stating the bleedin' obvious! So apologies for that and the confusion.
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Re: Rules Clarifications

Post by Zippee on Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:22 pm

Boltar wrote:
I can't see the point of saying " I activate unit A and do nothing , now I activate unit B and do nothing"  etc .

There isn't one really - except you always get your free Rally attempt. Iit's just an easier thing to remember that all units of an active command are, err, well actvated - your choice is only in what order.


On another topic , I was looking at the rules for flank charges , 7.2.2 and realised that the way it was written and the example shown assumed that the units that could do a flank charge would all start and finish their move below the line of the front of the unit being charged . But what about a unit that starts below that line , but when it contacts the enemy unit has some of the unit above the line ? . Just look at the example on page 37 ; if D was pointing at unit C , not E , then when it charged A , wouldn't some (if not most) of the unit be above the line . Would that mean it wasn't a flank attack ?

I'm pretty sure it's your starting position on the last movement segment of your move to contact (the charge segment if you like) that counts, if you are behind the line at that instant then your charge is a flank charge.
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