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Early Franks

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Re: Early Franks

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:43 pm

This is (hopefully) the final form of the Early Frank Beta List. Thanks for all your help.

EARLY FRANKS
(VOLUME Eight)
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CM Nobles* 10 5 2 B 3 23
or FP Nobles* 5 5 4 B 3 24 Impetuous - Francisca
12-50 FP Warriors 5 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-4 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-4 S Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
Alamanni
0-1 CM Cavalry* 10 5 2 B 3 23
4-12 FP Warriors* 5 4 4 C 2/3 12 (9) Impetuous
0-4 T Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short Bow A
or S Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short Bow A
0-2 S Javelinemen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin


NOTES AND OPTIONS. FP Warriors must form large Units. The front rank of a large unit can be upgraded to VBU=5 (Veterans) armed with Francisca for a final cost of 19pts. A large unit consisting of a front rank of FP Nobles and a back rank of Warriors is permitted. Mixed Discipline units use the lower discipline rating when testing. Francisca uses the Pilum rule but with a +2/+2 rating and is lost when the front unit is no longer fresh. Alamanni allies: Up to 1/2 deployed FP can be upgraded to VBU=5 for a final cost of 16 points.
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Tarty on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:40 pm

What about allowing the FP Nobles the ability to form LU with themselves as another option Gaius ? New cost for rear rank is 18pts.
Just a thought after the discussion we had over them Laughing
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:19 pm

Nobles are meant to represent the Comitatus of the warlord leading the command. I guess a LU of Nobles could represent a very large Comitatus? Not sure!
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Tarty on Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:27 pm

Gaius Cassius wrote:Nobles are meant to represent the Comitatus of the warlord leading the command. I guess a LU of Nobles could represent a very large Comitatus? Not sure!
Yes why not? Would give them another option couldn't hurt Wink
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:50 am

EARLY FRANKS
(VOLUME Eight)
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CM Nobles* 10 5 2 B 3 23
or FP Nobles* 5 5 4 B 3 24 (18) Impetuous - Francisca
12-50 FP Warriors 5 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-4 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-4 S Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
Alamanni
0-1 CM Cavalry* 10 5 2 B 3 23
4-12 FP Warriors* 5 4 4 C 2/3 12 (9) Impetuous
0-4 T Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short Bow A
or S Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short Bow A
0-2 S Javelinemen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin


NOTES AND OPTIONS. FP Warriors must form large Units. The front rank of a large unit can be upgraded to VBU=5 (Veterans) armed with Francisca for a final cost of 19pts. Nobles can form a large unit with another unit of Nobles or Warriors. Mixed Discipline units use the lower discipline rating when testing. Francisca uses the Pilum rule but with a +2/+2 rating and is lost when the front unit is no longer fresh. Alamanni allies: Up to 1/2 deployed FP can be upgraded to VBU=5 for a final cost of 16 points.
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Tarty on Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:39 am

Your going to hate me Smile ... hehe sorry Gaius
If mixed discipline LU's use the lowest rating wouldn't that go across the board? not just for testing? e.g. effect discipline rating in combat for everyone also? ....just putting it out there.
Only reason the front unit stays fresh is - 'empty front ranks are filled by men from the rear.'
Can of worms this mixed D stuff if you ask me Neutral
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:17 am

What you suggest Tarty is not how Impetus works. Otherwise we should be putting the losses on the front unit. Veteran troops would be replaced by lesser troops throughout the various lists.

Lorenzo explained it this way on the Old Forum. In a LU of Skutatoi and Archers the losses are put on the archers first. This seems counter intuitive at first glance. Shouldn't the VBU loss be put against the Skutatoi (which was my question)? Lorenzo's explanation was the something like the following, as combat escalates, the lesser committed troops begin to fritter away. The initial VBU losses are therefore more moral than physical. The Archers are not battle infantry and as battle intensifies they begin to break up even though they may experience little or no physical damage.

The initial VBU losses to a LU Warband may reflect very little actual combat damage but rather the frittering of lesser committed infantry at the back under the strain of battle. The core cadre of better soldiers is at the front may be little effected at this point.

The B rating for Nobles permits them to engage in battle more effectively which is precisely the point of having a split unit with them in the lead.
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Tarty on Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:15 am

The loses do come off the front...
2.5.1
The depth of a Large Unit may change due
to the elimination of the rear Unit(s) following losses
taken during battle. The only Unit to perform a
Cohesion Test is the front Unit, but losses are accumulated
starting from the rear, which is the first Unit
to be removed. This rule simulates the fact that the
empty front ranks are filled by men from the rear
.
This rule always applies, no matter which direction
the fire or charge may come from.

This what I'm referring to GC.

I agree the mixed weaponry in LU does require a little lateral thinking, the Sparabara conversation from way back comes to mind.....now fixed by making them all T's. Just thinking more on mixed D's, is it really worth adding another complexity to this for not much real gain? I don't know? Maybe your initial idea of keeping them C's and upping the VBU was the right one ?? Certainly fits better with the other lists out there.
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Gaius Cassius on Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:19 pm

I agree with your last statement. A large unit of 6/4 at least has a pedigree in Impetus. On the other hand, the move from VBU 5 to 6 is a big step especially in LUs. So I can see why Zippee and Cyrus would be hesitant to endorse such a move in the Early Frank list. Especially since the flank support bonuses have come into effect.  

I don't think we are adding that much complexity. The Nobles with test a C units but fight as B thus denying more professional troop types the extra die in melee. Let's see how it plays out. For all we know this could be the start of a new trend in Impetus. And if the idea utterly fails I will blame Zippee since it was his idea. Very Happy
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Tarty on Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:47 pm

Gaius Cassius wrote: And if the idea utterly fails I will blame Zippee since it was his idea. Very Happy

Absolutely was thinking that myself if it all blows up in our face  ...it was all Zippee's idea  Laughing silent
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Zippee on Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:30 pm

Tarty wrote:
Gaius Cassius wrote: And if the idea utterly fails I will blame Zippee since it was his idea. Very Happy

Absolutely was thinking that myself if it all blows up in our face  ...it was all Zippee's idea  Laughing silent

Then we should at least go with my last idea which is that the comitatus (or whatever we call them) are either:

1) a mounted or foot individual elite unit (B class, probably 5/4)
2) spread out to stiffen the front of the warrior masses allowing an upgrade of front LU warrior units to 5/4 C class.

Shocked
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Gaius Cassius on Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:34 pm

If we were to go with single stand nobles then the best representation in my opinion is 6/4 C. There is a strong tradition for this from other lists in Impetus including the Alamanni. If ultimately this troop type gets revised in Impetus 2 then that would be the appropriate time to do so for the Early Franks. I don't personally like the idea of single stand Nobles because it cause the player to do gimmicky things to protect its fresh status.

Personally I think your original suggestion is the better way to go. A small advantage but hardly decisive. So unless you have major objections with respect to play balance I think I will leave it at that.
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Zippee on Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:02 pm

To be clear I don't have any major objections to the list at all - in any of it's last 2-3 incarnations.

I'd be happy with 6/4 C - but with the DISC modifier now in play I think it's represented better by 5/4 B. I take your point about being in line with older lists - but shouldn't a new list reference the existing rules not out of date lists?

My concern is where the hardening of the front of the C class warband is coming from? How is it being achieved? if it's not the commitatus being spread across the front what exactly is it representing?

If given the choice of one or two general led single elite units or the hardening of the entire front line 90% will choose the latter! What I struggle with is how we justify offering both.
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:24 am

There are several warband lists that provide both the upgrade to the front ranks as Veteran Warriors and Nobles (or equivalent). So, no I don't think the upgrade for the front rank to VBU 5 in these lists necessarily reflects the comitatus being spread out across the front of the line. Rather, I think the upgrade reflects what the listing says, veteran warriors with greater experience and elan in the front of the warband column. The Comitatus was a band warriors specifically committed to fighting with the warlord through oath taking and I would imagine them staying close to their lord.
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:23 pm

I agree with Zippee
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Gaius Cassius on Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Cyrus The Adequate wrote:I agree with Zippee

The FP Nobles are such an insignificant part of the list that I am prepared to change it. From a game perspective having B class Nobles aren't really good value. It is really just a way of providing for some flavour.

EARLY FRANKS
(VOLUME Eight)
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CM Nobles* 10 5 2 B 3 23
12-50 FP Warriors* 5 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-4 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-4 S Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
Alamanni
0-1 CM Cavalry* 10 5 2 B 3 23
4-12 FP Warriors* 5 4 4 C 2/3 12 (9) Impetuous
0-4 T Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short Bow A
or S Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short Bow A
0-2 S Javelinemen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin


NOTES AND OPTIONS. FP Warriors must form large Units. The front rank of a large unit can be upgraded to VBU=5 (Veterans) armed with Francisca for a final cost of 19pts. Francisca uses the Pilum rule but with a +2/+2 rating and is lost when the front unit is no longer fresh. Alamanni allies: Up to 1/2 deployed FP can be upgraded to VBU=5 for a final cost of 16 points.
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Cyrus The Adequate on Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:19 pm

One question - why 12-50 (!) Warriors? Lists should aim to balance at 500 pts so it would be physically impossible to do so with 50 Warriors. Even dropping it to 40 is a stretch
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Gaius Cassius on Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:38 am

Yes, let's reduce the maximum to 40 and raise the minimum to 16 to bring the list into conformity with the Alammani list of EI2. It doesn't really make a lot of practical difference but it does make the list conform to established patterns.

EARLY FRANKS
(VOLUME Eight)
CS=Poor (0 pts)
Nr Type M VBU I D VD Pts Notes
0-3 CM Nobles* 10 5 2 B 3 23
16-40 FP Warriors* 5 4 4 C 2/3 12(9) Impetuous
0-4 S Javelinmen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin
0-4 S Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short bow B
Alamanni
0-1 CM Cavalry* 10 5 2 B 3 23
4-12 FP Warriors* 5 4 4 C 2/3 12 (9) Impetuous
0-4 T Archers 6 3 0 C 1 11 Short Bow A
or S Archers 8 2 0 B 1 12 Short Bow A
0-2 S Javelinemen 8 2 0 B 1 12 Javelin


NOTES AND OPTIONS. FP Warriors must form large Units. The front rank of a large unit can be upgraded to VBU=5 (Veterans) armed with Francisca for a final cost of 19pts. Francisca uses the Pilum rule but with a +2/+2 rating and is lost when the front unit is no longer fresh. Alamanni allies: Up to 1/2 deployed FP can be upgraded to VBU=5 for a final cost of 16 points.
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Zippee on Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:55 pm

Gaius Cassius wrote:There are several warband lists that provide both the upgrade to the front ranks as Veteran Warriors and Nobles (or equivalent). So, no I don't think the upgrade for the front rank to VBU 5 in these lists necessarily reflects the comitatus being spread out across the front of the line. Rather, I think the upgrade reflects what the listing says, veteran warriors with greater experience and elan in the front of the warband column. The Comitatus was a band warriors specifically committed to fighting with the warlord through oath taking and I would imagine them staying close to their lord.

If that's what the evidence points to then I'm fine with it.

Trouble is I'm not sure we have that evidence. (For the Franks or others)

And evidence of other lists doing it wrong/badly ain't good reason to continue Smile

That said it might just represent reasonable assumption that experience could be gained and that's fine - we know so little we have to make informed guesses. Maybe it should only be up to 25% of the warriors - improvement means shedding the dregs!

Oh and if the comitatus really is as small as you suggest - then why are we representing it Smile
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Tarty on Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:10 pm

There's quiet a few lists where you can upgrade a unit to 'Elite' so long as you have a general attached. Always thought this was a reasonable way of representing personal bodyguard. Just saying Smile
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Zippee on Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:21 pm

Agreed - although just having a general in the unit improves it's CT survival markedly, so I'm not sure the 'elite' upgrade is therefore mandatory Smile
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Re: Early Franks

Post by Gaius Cassius on Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:11 pm

It takes time but I think the final list is a pretty decent representation of the Early Franks. What got me convinced in the end was going back to the DBM list for the Franks and realizing that there was very few troop types available (Noble cavalry, warbands and skirmishers.)

Now that the list is done I can begin the process of painting the Franks up.
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Re: Early Franks

Post by dadiepiombo on Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:54 pm

once you feel the list is ready to become a beta and added to the buch, please send me at losart AT libero DOT it :-)
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Re: Early Franks

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